# Is this racist? (Australian variety show skit) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146 "2009-10-09T02:14:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/121 "2009-10-15T14:32:39Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Your point has no rational basis. There are any number of dolls that are pisspoor representations of people (think cabbage patch or whatever). The west also has a rich history of “whitey” icons. But a black doll that is a poor representation is racist (apparently) but a white one would never be suggested to be. Why? Because you can’t see a black doll that isn’t picture perfect as anything other than an attempt to ridicule, while the same thought would never occur to you in relation to a white doll. The problem lies in you. It’s not because it’s less than perfect. It’s because it’s got exaggerated looks that are stereotypes. The huge lips, the big kinky hair, the pitch black skin. Like the “Mammy Two Steps” character in Tom and Jerry. If someone unfamiliar with the culture saw it, they wouldn’t get it. But it’s playing on a racist stereotype. I mean, if someone made a doll that was meant to be Jewish, gave it a huge nose and starting selling them, you wouldn’t think they were trying to be offensive? Then again, this is the Dope where there are posters who generally think “Jewed him over” is a compliment to the Jewish financial ability. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/122 "2009-10-15T15:47:32Z")
An action can be racist without the actor being racist. The act on the show WAS racist, I’m sorry there are no two ways around it. Are the performers racist? Well, I dunno, the act is the only point of reference I have, but it is such limited evidence that I would not feel comfortable calling them racist anymore than I would feel comfortable calling them oblivious or ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/123 "2009-10-15T17:26:15Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Your point has no rational basis. There are any number of dolls that are pisspoor representations of people (think cabbage patch or whatever). The west also has a rich history of “whitey” icons. But a black doll that is a poor representation is racist (apparently) but a white one would never be suggested to be. Why? Because you can’t see a black doll that isn’t picture perfect as anything other than an attempt to ridicule, while the same thought would never occur to you in relation to a white doll. The problem lies in you. You know that there were black cabbage patch dolls, too, right? Oddly enough, no one ever called those dolls racist, despite them being poor representations of black people. You know why? Because those dolls didn’t deliberately draw on imagery that has a long and well-documented history of racist stereotyping. ---
**Author:** ![BigNik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@BigNik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigNik)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/124 "2009-10-15T21:53:21Z")
> [@Dioptre](#): > > 1. Offensive is not the same as racist. It’s very hard to argue that the skit wasn’t offensive - particularly since offense is often something in the eye of the beholder, and people DID take offense. I personally don’t think it was racist - “Hey Hey It’s Saturday” is just generally offensive. I’d disagree with pretty much every point of that. People were offended, sure. The term “offensive”, however, is an objective rather than a subjective term like “offended”, and while it’s apparent that it would have been considered objectively offensive in the US, it wasn’t to its audience. If American commentators want their moral standards to apply to others, that’s nothing new but it doesn’t make them right. On the other hand, it clearly made a play on racial characteristics, so I’d say that “racist” is a pretty good description. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/125 "2009-10-15T22:10:05Z")
> [@BigNik](#): > > People were offended, sure. The term “offensive”, however, is an objective rather than a subjective term like “offended”, and while it’s apparent that it would have been considered objectively offensive in the US, it wasn’t to its audience. If American commentators want their moral standards to apply to others, that’s nothing new but it doesn’t make them right. I don’t think this can be pointed out often enough: if you don’t want Americans offering their opinions about your TV shows, then the very first thing you should not do is invite an American onto your TV show for the express purpose of offering his opinion on the performance. ---
**Author:** ![BigNik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@BigNik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigNik)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/126 "2009-10-16T03:27:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think this can be pointed out often enough: if you don’t want Americans offering their opinions about your TV shows, then the very first thing you should not do is invite an American onto your TV show for the express purpose of offering his opinion on the performance. Quite right. Everyone should have known that a brief appearance by Harry Connick Jr is international ratings gold! ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/127 "2009-10-16T04:21:33Z")
> [@BigNik](#): > > I’d disagree with pretty much every point of that. > > People were offended, sure. The term “offensive”, however, is an objective rather than a subjective term like “offended”, and while it’s apparent that it would have been considered objectively offensive in the US, it wasn’t to its audience. If American commentators want their moral standards to apply to others, that’s nothing new but it doesn’t make them right. > > On the other hand, it clearly made a play on racial characteristics, so I’d say that “racist” is a pretty good description. I’m not sure I get this post. You say “If American commentators want their moral standards to apply to others, that’s nothing new but it doesn’t make them right.” But then in a following statement you say that you think the skit was racist. Is racism immoral or not? ---
**Author:** ![BigNik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@BigNik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigNik)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/128 "2009-10-16T04:33:25Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > But then in a following statement you say that you think the skit was racist. Is racism immoral or not? Of course it was racist - it had people dressing up as caricatures by doing little beyond exaggerating racial characteristics. Why does that have to be immoral? It doesn’t appear to have been designed to denigrate or cause offense. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/129 "2009-10-16T04:38:34Z")
> [@BigNik](#): > > Of course it was racist - it had people dressing up as caricatures by doing little beyond exaggerating racial characteristics. > > Why does that have to be immoral? It doesn’t appear to have been designed to denigrate or cause offense. Because racism is wrong. It’s always wrong. You think it’s ok sometimes? Really? ---
**Author:** ![BigNik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@BigNik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigNik)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/130 "2009-10-16T04:43:51Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > Because racism is wrong. It’s always wrong. You think it’s ok sometimes? Really? Yeah, really. There are people who see a few more shades of grey than that. The fact that aboriginies are genetically more prone to certain diseases than white people? Racist. And therefore obviously - and I quote - “always wrong”. The fact that Africans have more fast-twitch muscle fibres than white people? Apparently “always wrong”. But if that works for you, I’m obviously not going to change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/131 "2009-10-16T04:44:46Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Then again, this is the Dope where there are posters who generally think “Jewed him over” is a compliment to the Jewish financial ability. :rolleyes: I have never, ever, _ever_ seen this happen. What are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/132 "2009-10-16T04:55:36Z")
> [@BigNik](#): > > Yeah, really. There are people who see a few more shades of grey than that. > > The fact that aboriginies are genetically more prone to certain diseases than white people? Racist. And therefore obviously - and I quote - “always wrong”. No. If one group is more prone to certain diseases it’s not racist to point that out. It is racist to make fun of them for it. > [@](#): > > The fact that Africans have more fast-twitch muscle fibres than white people? Is this even true? > [@](#): > > But if that works for you, I’m obviously not going to change your mind. You’re not going to convince me that entertainment through the caricature of racial stereotypes is ok, no. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/133 "2009-10-16T05:05:08Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > You’re not going to convince me that entertainment through the caricature of racial stereotypes is ok, no. So what about caricature of National stereotypes? There was that _Simpsons_ episode a few years back which depicted all Australians as backwards, poorly educated beer-swillers who lived in a country which had only recently installed electricity and had silly names for everything. Would you consider that OK? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/134 "2009-10-16T05:22:44Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > Is this even true? Le sigh. Why not just type a few words into the [interweb](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=fast+twitch+muscles+black+people&aq=0&oq=fast+twitch+muscles+b&aqi=g2)? ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/135 "2009-10-16T06:52:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think this can be pointed out often enough: if you don’t want Americans offering their opinions about your TV shows, then the very first thing you should not do is invite an American onto your TV show for the express purpose of offering his opinion on the performance. And there are some eccentrics who keep their parochial views to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/136 "2009-10-16T07:42:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I have never, ever, _ever_ seen this happen. What are you referring to? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=530167&page=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=530167&page=2) > [@"That's so gay"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/93): > > Well, to be honest when I used the term “to jew someone down” or heard it used it never occurred to me that Jews were cheap. It was used to mean that I or someone else got the best damn bargain possible. It meant that we were skillful in the art of bartering. All right, I guess that isn’t exactly “it’s a compliment b/c Jews are so good with money” but it does miss the point pretty spectacularly. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/137 "2009-10-16T08:10:00Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > So what about caricature of National stereotypes? There was that _Simpsons_ episode a few years back which depicted all Australians as backwards, poorly educated beer-swillers who lived in a country which had only recently installed electricity and had silly names for everything. Would you consider that OK? But we are. 😃 The problem wasn’t the idea, it was how badly they did it. Every single caricature missed the point, so badly that if you hadn’t been told they were parodying Australians you would not have been able to pick what nation they were trying to parody. It was clearly written by someone who had never been here, and possibly never even met an Ozzie. We just watched it bemused. Australians love to take the piss out of everything, and curiously, we enjoy taking the piss out of ourselves possibly more than anything else. We do get into trouble. OK, back to normal discussion new. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/138 "2009-10-16T08:17:59Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > But we are. 😃 > > The problem wasn’t the idea, it was how badly they did it. Every single caricature missed the point, so badly that if you hadn’t been told they were parodying Australians you would not have been able to pick what nation they were trying to parody. It was clearly written by someone who had never been here, and possibly never even met an Ozzie. We just watched it bemused. > > Australians love to take the piss out of everything, and curiously, we enjoy taking the piss out of ourselves possibly more than anything else. We do get into trouble. > > OK, back to normal discussion new. I don’t think anyone here in Australia actually found the episode _offensive_- as you say, it was very poorly executed and I agree most people would have been bemused rather than offended by it. The point that I’m making is that if it’s not OK to caricature people’s racial characteristics for entertainment, then how is OK to caricature people’s (alleged) _cultural_ characteristics for entertainment? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/139 "2009-10-16T08:38:36Z")
> [@BigNik](#): > > Yeah, really. There are people who see a few more shades of grey than that. > > The fact that aboriginies are genetically more prone to certain diseases than white people? Racist. And therefore obviously - and I quote - “always wrong”. **The fact that Africans have more fast-twitch muscle fibres than white people?** Apparently “always wrong”. > > But if that works for you, I’m obviously not going to change your mind. Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146/140 "2009-10-16T08:58:44Z")
Oh boy! Now Vogue magazine is in trouble for blackface models. > **[Outrage over Vogue photographs](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/oct/13/french-vogue-photographs-outrage)** > > French edition of magazine features pictures of model Lara Stone with her face and body painted black [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist-australian-variety-show-skit/513146.md?page=8)