# Is this racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502 "2005-11-04T17:02:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/21 "2005-11-04T17:57:18Z")
[hijack] :o :o :o :o :o :o :o Blushing out loud. Seriously. Thank you, **Lib**. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/22 "2005-11-04T18:03:07Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > It’s hard to imagine a more benign racist comment; but according to the definition of racism taht I use (roughly, when youdefine a racial group by characteristics x, y, and z, and then state that the unrelated characteristic W is true of the racial group, you’re being racist), it qualifies. Her getting upset over it was silly, though: it’s about as offensive as if you said, “guys with freckles tend to like red wine.” > > Daniel I thought to be racist it had to have a history of being associated with violence. Is your definition shifting, or did I misunderstand? **Liberal** : re **Kimstu**. Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/23 "2005-11-04T18:04:29Z")
Not racist. It sounds like your friend is one of those strident, hyperreactive, sanctimonious ultra-liberals who basically get off on showing how much more racially sensitive they are than everybody else and how much they feel black people’s pain. I remember this type from college. If there’s such a thing as a liberal fundie, this is it. I wonder if this woman has ever seen Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle. For both of these guys, humorous generalizations about racial groups are a huge part of their acts. I wonder if she’s offended that Dave Chapelle says that white people like music with guitars and that black people like drums. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/24 "2005-11-04T18:10:53Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I thought to be racist it had to have a history of being associated with violence. Is your definition shifting, or did I misunderstand? I believe you’re thinking of the definition I used for hate speech or something. To be fair, this example might point to a problem with the definition I use for racist: it certainly seems like it trivializes the word to consider something this benign to be racist. On the other hand, I’m not sure what would constitute a better definition for racism. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/25 "2005-11-04T18:15:27Z")
**DTC** : “… It sounds like your friend is one of those strident, hyperreactive, sanctimonious ultra-liberals who basically get off on showing how much more racially sensitive they are than everybody else and how much they feel black people’s pain…” Clap. Clap. Clap. Clap. Clap. Perfect. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/26 "2005-11-04T18:16:03Z")
I think the interpretation by the person in the OP was along the lines: stereotypes and generalizations are the purview of the racist mind; therefore, all racial/cultural stereotypes are racist. A close equivalent might be “Black people like watermelon/fried chicken”. Because these things were once used as caricatures, they are usually found racist or offensive. Even if a study showed these statements to be true, the history of these things as fodder for jokes would still make these statements to be taken as offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/27 "2005-11-04T18:21:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I wonder if this woman has ever seen Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle. For both of these guys, humorous generalizations about racial groups are a huge part of their acts. I wonder if she’s offended that Dave Chapelle says that white people like music with guitars and that black people like drums. I don’t know the context, but I find that comment from Dave Chapelle annoying if it’s a “black people are x and white people are y” comment. I can just see the racists saying “See, that proves that white people are more sophisticated!” Said the white guy who mostly listens to music where the guitars are more prominent than the drums. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/28 "2005-11-04T18:22:00Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I believe you’re thinking of the definition I used for hate speech or something. To be fair, this example might point to a problem with the definition I use for racist: it certainly seems like it trivializes the word to consider something this benign to be racist. > > On the other hand, I’m not sure what would constitute a better definition for racism. > > Daniel You are exactly right. It was hate speech. Sorry for the mistake. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/29 "2005-11-04T18:22:41Z")
I’ll try to explain why it was considered offensive. Remember context and content always matter. There’s a belief that people who eat well cook meat do so, because they lack the “sophistication” to know better. Your friend being a black studies major, most likely is aware of all the stereotypes associated with African-Americans and their tastes, in music, in clothes, in art etc, most often those tastes were considered lessor; childish, unsophisticated. Then you come along and charactize a whole group of people of being unsophisticated, because they eat their meat well done, based solely on your limited experience. EVERYbody knows, African-Americans lack the ability to tell the difference between the finer things in life and here you go validating it. Now sure it was innocent comment and sure she over-reacted, but her over-reaction didn’t come out of left field; it has as much basis in fact, as your comment. It’s tough walking the land-mine of race and culture; fortunately those mines are getting smaller and smaller. Did it really matter that most of your African-American customers, like their meat well done? Wouldn’t the same effect had been accomplished, if you said, “most of my customers, like their meat well done?” If she was aware of the neighbourhood, then she would have known the ethnicity of the clientele. Why did you need to specifiy them? It’s not like, eating steak well done is unique. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/30 "2005-11-04T18:22:47Z")
We were just at a restaurant - a really nice one (Flying Fish at Walt Disney World, btw - best piece of fish I’ve had in years). Brainiac4 ordered his steak the way he always does “the right way…medium rare.” The waiter laughed. Brainic4 made some comment about who would order their steak well done. The waiter came back with “The British.” Now I know, our waiter was closet IRA. [hijack] - yep, I open GD threads when I notice Kimstu is in them, just because I know that at least some of the posts will be rational and enlightening [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/31 "2005-11-04T18:30:39Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > The waiter laughed. Brainic4 made some comment about who would order their steak well done. The waiter came back with “The British.” Ironically, rare/medium rare steak in some parts of the world is referred to as “English”. I think it might be associated with their use of the word “Bloody” versus the actual steak preference of the English, though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/32 "2005-11-04T18:34:40Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > I’ll try to explain why it was considered offensive. Remember context and content always matter. There’s a belief that people who eat well cook meat do so, because they lack the “sophistication” to know better. So you believe the friend was aware of not well known meat rant? I think statements that all BMW drivers are a$$holes is far more common and I would hardly consider that common. Your watermelon & fried chicken points are well taken. There is a common derogatory theme to these. But how well known is the Well Done steak = unsophisticated. \*\* DTC \*\* has said it best about this friend. Jim BTW for the record I like Medium. Great post **DTC** ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/33 "2005-11-04T18:35:06Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > I don’t know the context, but I find that comment from Dave Chapelle annoying if it’s a “black people are x and white people are y” comment. > I can just see the racists saying “See, that proves that white people are more sophisticated!” > > Said the white guy who mostly listens to music where the guitars are more prominent than the drums. In the context of the entire sketch, it wasn’t offensive at all. It would take too long to explain the whole thing, but basically he was having fun with a premise that different kinds of music will get different racial groups to dance. Chappelle’s brilliance lies in his ability to do this kind of humor without ever seeming angry, mean spirited or mocking. He has a good nature and a warmth that keeps it from being offensive. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/34 "2005-11-04T18:42:25Z")
I do, and I’m not a big red meat eater, but I do go to haveway decent resturants. I don’t know. The easy answer is the friend was hypersensitive; but THAT’s always the answer it seems. I just suggest, they MAY have been a reason for the preceived slight, other than the usual PCness. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/35 "2005-11-04T18:46:24Z")
I’m reminded of a black comedian I saw once whose entire riff was to refute the notion that white people can’t dance: he described going to a country hoedown and watching those white folk tear it up, and then he launched into a one-man squaredance, complete with air-fiddle, air-banjo, and solo do-si-do. It was hilariously funny, one of the most good-natured race-based teasings I’ve ever seen. I think that maybe part of the problem is that we construct race both as a set of physical characteristics and as a set of cultural characteristics; when we confuse the two, it gets really thorny. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/36 "2005-11-04T18:47:15Z")
I think **holmes** makes some good points here. But, forgive me for stating the obvious here, people from different races & cultures like different things. Regardless of what connotation people have attached to certain tastes, this is a reality. Talking about these tendancies, if they are not couched in a negative, demeaning way, should not be considered racist. If it is, we lose the ability to have a reasonable discussion about these differences and we have to revert to the silly utopian notions about the sameness of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/37 "2005-11-04T18:48:27Z")
The real brilliance is when the two cops turn up, one “white” and one “black” and they both dance to the rock guitar. Dave asks the ‘black’ cop, what’s up with that and the cop responds he can’t help it, he grew up on Long Island. Dave shrugs and starts dancing too. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/38 "2005-11-04T18:50:24Z")
The statement in the OP is not racist in the least bit. Logically, it’s not even false. I’m black and prefer my steaks cooked rare or medium-rare. So does my husband, who is also black. The rest of our older family members–who, incidentally, are all black–prefer their steaks cooked done to well-done. ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/39 "2005-11-04T19:03:29Z")
The icing on the cake, **UrbanChic** , is that you’re writing from “Meatspace.” ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502/40 "2005-11-04T19:11:57Z")
Can we get the definitive answer on whether this is racism or not from [**Bob Loblaw**?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=342417) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/329502.md?page=3)