# Is this racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728 "2006-03-17T13:44:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/1 "2006-03-17T13:44:27Z")
I was talking to someone on a conference call and they said “oh, that’ll pay back in spades” or some such variant – but I am confident you know the expression in general. They then immediately excused themselves – “pardon the language” – and I stopped things and asked “pardon what?” and he stated that he thought that “spades” in that expression referred to Blacks and was therefore unintentionally racist at its heart. I hadn’t ever considered that – I have always assumed that it referred to playing cards. Is anyone familiar with any “truths” about this old saying? Is it generally understood in the Black community to be racist in origin – or not? Just curious…every now and then I think about the phrase “I shot my wad” and how fundamentally crude and sexual it is. Same with “who’s your Daddy” having its roots in prison sexual dominance, yet somehow crossing over to the mainstream. Is that is what happened with the “spades” cliché, or is it really more harmless than that? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/2 "2006-03-17T13:50:50Z")
When I hear spades in the context that your co-worker used it, I don’t ever associate it with black people. I think of cards and garden utensils, but not blacks. And I’m black, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/3 "2006-03-17T13:56:52Z")
It definitely is based on cards – the OED says it’s from bridge, where spades is the highest ranking suit. That doesn’t preclude people from thinking it has something to do with the racial term, which also is derived from cards (e.g., “Black as the ace of spaces”). But from a purely etymoligical standpoint, the phrase has no direct racist origin: it’s just parallel to the racist term, though both have the same root. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/4 "2006-03-17T14:06:38Z")
Since it’s a metaphor from bridge, it means that spades are more valuable than anything else. So, if spades = black people, that would imply that black people are more valuable than other people. If it’s racism, it’s racism directed against non-black people. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/5 "2006-03-17T14:14:27Z")
Hmm. I always assumed “spades” meant the digging tool. So “it’ll pay back in spades” meant “you’ll get a lot of shit shoveled on you as payback”. ---
**Author:** ![Charger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df788c/32.png) [@Charger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charger)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/6 "2006-03-17T14:20:18Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > That doesn’t preclude people from thinking it has something to do with the racial term, which also is derived from cards (e.g., “Black as the ace of spades”). I used to hear my mom say “black as the ace of spades,” but she’d use it in a non-racial context, such as to describe a dark night, or the color of a vehicle, cat, or hair color. Basically, anything that was _literally_ black. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/7 "2006-03-17T14:26:57Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > So “it’ll pay back in spades” meant “you’ll get a lot of shit shoveled on you as payback”. But “it’ll pay back in spades” is supposed to be a \*\*good \*\* thing. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/8 "2006-03-17T14:28:17Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > But “it’ll pay back in spades” is supposed to be a \*\*good \*\* thing. It is? I’ve always heard it the opposite way round - you did something stupid/mean, so later it’ll bite you in the ass. Sort of a karma motto. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/9 "2006-03-17T14:30:15Z")
> [@Charger](#): > > I used to hear my mom say “black as the ace of spades,” but she’d use it in a non-racial context, such as to describe a dark night, or the color of a vehicle, cat, or hair color. Basically, anything that was _literally_ black. Well, black people are literally black. Metaphorically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/10 "2006-03-17T14:47:36Z")
So your coworker was actually being racist by misunderstanding a saying that isn’t racist at all? Wow. Like there aren’t enough real ones out there to choose from. If you will excuse me, I have to go celebrate St. Paddy’s day in the cafeteria. I hear there are some black Irish there and I want to greet them with a yo bro. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/11 "2006-03-17T14:52:05Z")
It’s not racist, nor is “call a spade a spade” (which is based on the digging tool ((mistranslated from a trench)) and which I have heard black people use). As a generalization, black people are more prone to perceive racism when it’s not really there, and white people are more prone not to perceive racism when it really is there. Though there’s plenty of room for growth and improvement in American race relations, there has been progress and increasing awareness over the years, which I think is reflected in the misguided but presumably sincere apology related in the OP. His heart was in the right place, but his understanding of the facts was incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/12 "2006-03-17T14:52:15Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Same with “who’s your Daddy” having its roots in prison sexual dominance, yet somehow crossing over to the mainstream. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/13 "2006-03-17T16:29:58Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > It is? I’ve always heard it the opposite way round - you did something stupid/mean, so later it’ll bite you in the ass. Sort of a karma motto. You’re probably right that it could work both ways, but here are a bunch of examples of a small investment reaping big rewards: [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="pay+back+in+spades"&btnG=Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22pay+back+in+spades%22&btnG=Search) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/14 "2006-03-17T19:22:34Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > :dubious: [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46032-2005Jan3.html): > [@](#): > > While the phrase has its innocent overtones – in the 1969 Zombies hit “Time of the Season,” the singer investigates a potential love interest by inquiring, “What’s your name, who’s your daddy?” – its most direct and historic meaning has been sexual. The origins of the full phrase are obscure, but the slang use of “daddy” has long been associated with prostitution. According to the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, the oldest usage dates to 1681, when the speakers were hookers who used the phrase in reference to their pimps or to an older male customer. > > In old blues songs, dating to at least 1909, “daddy” is slang for pimp. The title of another number, from1926, spelled it out a little further: “How Can I Be Your Sweet Mama When You’re Daddy to Someone Else?” Later on, the term was generalized in African American speech to mean any male lover, and had variants, such as “sugar daddy,” that survive to this day, according to the slang dictionary. > > The dictionary also offers this origin: “the partner who plays the dominant or masculine role in a homosexual relationship,” for example, **“jailhouse daddy.”** \ **Shagnasty** - I wasn’t judging my co-worker at all; I was merely surprised that they felt the need to qualify their use of the phrase. I have no idea if that person is racist at all - it simply wasn’t part of my thought processes as I pondered the phrase after we spoke… ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/15 "2006-03-17T19:28:37Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > It is? I’ve always heard it the opposite way round - you did something stupid/mean, so later it’ll bite you in the ass. Sort of a karma motto. it means to pay back exponentially, good or bad. there is no digging reference – quite the imagination on you! ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/16 "2006-03-17T19:29:41Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Well, black people are literally black. Metaphorically speaking. most are a shade of brown, literally speaking ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/17 "2006-03-17T19:31:40Z")
> [@whole bean](#): > > it means to pay back exponentially, good or bad. there is no digging reference – quite the imagination on you! I should say it’s used to mean an increased return in value (not necessarily number, so exponentially was probably not the best word). so it could also be used to mean payback in a increased negative value ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/18 "2006-03-18T03:03:43Z")
Google isn’t helping as much as I would like, but I always understood “shot his wad” to mean that he has given all there is, and it’s over now. He doesn’t have a chance now. I’ll look around some more. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/19 "2006-03-18T03:06:53Z")
Rule of thumb: if you have to ask “Is it racist?” it’s probably not, althought it might be in the neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/20 "2006-03-18T03:06:56Z")
shoot your wad 1. to spend or use everything that you have. He’s going to shoot his wad on his night out - whatever it costs for a good time. 2. to say everything that you want to say about a particular subject. Our opponents shot their wad at the meeting and left everyone in no doubt that they would oppose our plans. > **[shot down](https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/shot+down)** > > Definition of shot down in the Idioms Dictionary by The Free Dictionary [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728.md?page=2)