# Is this racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728 "2006-03-17T13:44:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/21 "2006-03-18T03:25:54Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46032-2005Jan3.html): > > **Shagnasty** - I wasn’t judging my co-worker at all; I was merely surprised that they felt the need to qualify their use of the phrase. I have no idea if that person is racist at all - it simply wasn’t part of my thought processes as I pondered the phrase after we spoke… I wasn’t talking about you. I meant that,if the coworker was ignorant enough to use a phrase he thought was offensive even if it wasn’t and that is bad intent on his part. Of course, what we have here is just a public declaration of ignorance. 1. Coworker wants to come up with a phrase to describe a situation. 2. The only one that comes to mind is a “racist” in his own mind. 3. He decides to use it. 4. He apologizes for it in advance. 5. He thinks he may have been racist even though no one else sees it that way. What if your coworker believed there was a dictator so evil and so menacing in history that he is known only in history by his first name: “Jack”? What if your coworker goes around emphasizing he going to “jack” up the prices and “jack” someone over. Would it be really evil if he thought that way but no one else understood it that way at all? If you knew this and he told you not to “jack” him around, would that change your reaction? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/22 "2006-03-18T13:11:30Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > shoot your wad > > 1. to spend or use everything that you have. He’s going to shoot his wad on his night out - whatever it costs for a good time. > 2. to say everything that you want to say about a particular subject. Our opponents shot their wad at the meeting and left everyone in no doubt that they would oppose our plans. > > [Shot down - Idioms by The Free Dictionary](http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/shot+down) **Cardinal** - that seems like the definition; the real question is the origin. It derives from “shooting your wad” (duh!); i.e., ejaculating and having none left for another go for a while…as I said, crudely sexual… **Shagnasty** - yep, there was a little taint to his action, now that I think about it. I guess that might’ve been what stuck in my head…I would change your analogy a round. What if somebody thought a stupid nonsense phrase that means nothing, i.e., “tethering the blimp” was crudely sexual, even though no one else does - if they knew they could get away with using it (because no one else, frankly, cared) but they knew it was “dirty” is it okay to use in a social situations where more polished or professional demeanor is required? With either your or my analogy, I am inclined to think No - hence the taint. I wonder if this would be a good question for the Ethicist in the NYTimes Weekly Magazine? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/23 "2006-03-18T18:38:03Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > that seems like the definition; the real question is the origin. It derives from “shooting your wad” (duh!); i.e., ejaculating and having none left for another go for a while…as I said, crudely sexual… The problem that I have with a sexual origin is the fact that I know of know other context in which “wad” means “semen.” I guess it might be a corruption of “shoot one’s load,” clearly a sexual reference, but that, to me, seems like an unlikely corruption. It would seem to me that “shooting a _wad_ of bills” (spending all one’s money) would provide a more consistent origin. (I have also seen speculation that it came from the era of muzzleloading weapons, when a wad of material was used to hold the lead ball in place. The supposed etymology was that if one placed the wad in the barrel and forgot the bullet, “shooting one’s wad” would be the equivalent of shooting blanks. However, I have never seen that meaning attached to the phrase and I suspect that it is a badly rendered folk etymology.) Unfortunately, my abridged _Partridge_ does not even include the phrase and I have not found it in my edition of the OED. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/24 "2006-03-18T18:51:45Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > That doesn’t preclude people from thinking it has something to do with the racial term, which also is derived from cards (e.g., “Black as the ace of spaces”). But from a purely etymoligical standpoint, the phrase has no direct racist origin: it’s just parallel to the racist term, though both have the same root. I think you might be being somewhat niggardly with the facts in casting that phrase purely in racial terms. How is “Black as the ace of spades” an across the board racial term? The ace of spades is black, and I’ve heard it applied to inanimate (black) objects before. And even if it is used in reference to a black person, would it be considered more descriptive or more of a slur, or does that depend on context? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/25 "2006-03-18T19:02:21Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > 1. Coworker wants to come up with a phrase to describe a situation. > 2. The only one that comes to mind is a “racist” in his own mind. > 3. He decides to use it. > 4. He apologizes for it in advance. > 5. He thinks he may have been racist even though no one else sees it that way. I have to disagree with this assessment. _1) Coworker wants to come up with a phrase to describe a situation._ Okay. _2), 3), & 4)_ Wrong. Try this: 1. One pops into mind and he blurts it out. 2. As soon as he hears himself say it, he believes it was a faux pas. 3. He therefore apologizes right **after** he says it (read the OP). _5) He thinks he may have been racist even though no one else sees it that way._ No, according to the OP he thought it **was** (not “may have been”) racist. And while he’s obviously misinformed, I don’t see the relevance of “even though no one else sees it that way.” We have no way of knowing how he thinks anyone else sees it, nor any reason to think he would see it as racist if he knew that no one else agreed, nor for that matter any evidence that he’s the only one who takes it as racist. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/26 "2006-03-18T19:23:56Z")
**Tomndebb** - I think you’re probably right - “shot my wad” started off with a muzzle-load gun origin that evolved to mean something sexual in the early 1900’s. [This thread](http://p098.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm3.showMessage?topicID=230.topic) on a word geek site has a pretty informed-looking discussion that reaches that conclusion near as I can tell… As for my co-worker’s mindset as the little episode that started this thread played out - I haven’t asked him further and don’t intend to. I can see there being a difference between thinking the phrase is racist and trying to apologize his way to PC-ness vs. blurting it and then mistakenly deciding there is a need to recover, but the distinction between the two isn’t really the purpose of my OP… ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/27 "2006-03-18T19:45:49Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I think you might be being somewhat niggardly with the facts in casting that phrase purely in racial terms. How is “Black as the ace of spades” an across the board racial term? The ace of spades is black, and I’ve heard it applied to inanimate (black) objects before. And even if it is used in reference to a black person, would it be considered more descriptive or more of a slur, or does that depend on context? First of all, I salute you for using “niggardly.” 😃 I have heard “Black as the ace of spades” used to refer to a person’s race. More importantly, the OED lists the use of “spade” meaning a Black person as deriving from the card suit: > [@](#): > > ``` > 3. a. A Black person, a Negro, esp. male: freq. in White use, as a term of contempt or casual reference. Formerly among U.S. Blacks, a very dark-skinned Negro. slang (orig. U.S.). > > ``` This is listed with the definition of spade = card suit, a sign of common origin. BTW, “spade” in cards does not derive from “spade” = shovel: > [@](#): > > [ad. It. spade, pl. of spada (Sp. and Pg. espada) sword (see SPADO2), used as a mark on playing-cards. Cf. G. spadi from the same source. > In British and other cards ultimately of French origin the mark has a form resembling that of a pointed spade, so that there is a natural association with SPADE n.1 Cf. G. dial. spaten, Da. and Sw. spader (pl.).] The “natural association” means that people tend to think there’s a connection, even though the word come from elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/28 "2006-03-18T19:49:03Z")
The OED also gives “wad” as in “shot my wad” as deriving from guns. It’s listed as the equivalent as “shot one’s bolt,” with clear archery origins. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/29 "2006-03-18T23:35:00Z")
Archery origins? How’s that? I thought it had started from guns. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/30 "2006-03-18T23:38:40Z")
> [@whole bean](#): > > it means to pay back exponentially, good or bad. there is no digging reference – quite the imagination on you! I don’t see why spade = card suit is so much more the obvious connection that spade = shovel. I’d not heard the card explanation before. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/31 "2006-03-18T23:47:18Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > Archery origins? How’s that? I thought it had started from guns. The archery connection is to bolt, not wad. A bolt is one name for the projectile hurled by a crossbow which is (sometimes) used to identify an arrow. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/32 "2006-03-18T23:48:16Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > Archery origins? How’s that? I thought it had started from guns. Perhaps “shot one’s bolt” comes from the practice of crossbow fire. A crossbow packs a punch but it takes some time to re-set (crank, wind, cock) for another shot. The metaphor is therefore very similar to muzzle-loading rifles and cannons, where you have one good shot, and then a delay to re-load before another shot can be attempted. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/33 "2006-03-19T00:21:55Z")
My understanding of the “shot his wad” term – and I don’t think one can seriously question whether it _originiated_ from muzzle-loading gun technology – is that, although a wad is fired with every shot (one loads powder, wad, ball), when one is out of lead balls (ammunition) or when one is otherwise reduced to the last extremity, one fires the wad itself without a ball (either from panic, or in a mindless frenzy of loading and shooting as fast as possible, or in a last act of defiance). At that point, one’s main effort is spent. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728/34 "2006-03-20T16:48:46Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > First of all, I salute you for using “niggardly.” 😃 This thread was begging for it, 🙂 And thanks for the rest of the info. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/348728.md?page=1)