# Is this racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717 "2012-09-24T21:57:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/41 "2012-09-25T18:03:14Z")
But attraction and repulsion often track with racist prejudice. Like I said earlier, if somebody was raised in a racist household and constantly received the message that a certain group of people was ugly and repulsive and subhuman, they might well grow up to be sexually repelled by members of that group, for racist reasons. Sure, their repulsion wouldn’t be a deliberate **act** of racism because it was trained into them when they were too young to know better. But obviously, it would be ultimately motivated and inspired by racism. [ETA: As **Cheesesteak** snuck in to say while I was typing.] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/42 "2012-09-25T22:20:36Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Then why can’t a racist use that argument if he grew up in a KKK household? Because racists make false claims about objective facts. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/43 "2012-09-26T01:48:57Z")
What if I said that I think that Asian women are incredibly attractive? Is that racist? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/44 "2012-09-27T00:58:10Z")
Sure it’s racist. Where people get hung up is in assuming that every instance of racism no matter how trivial must be challenged and condemned in the strongest possible terms no matter where the chips fall. If it’s your dad who made the statement, he’s your dad, so what are you really gonna do? Start hating the guy because he thinks all Asian women are ugly? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/45 "2012-09-27T01:10:24Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What if I said that I think that Asian women are incredibly attractive? Is that racist? Keep in mind that positive racism is really just another way of expressing negative racism. If you say _“Asians are smarter and more attractive and commit fewer crimes”_ you’re also saying _“Non-Asians are dumber and less attractive and commit more crimes”_. ---
**Author:** ![jtart2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8edcca/32.png) [@jtart2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtart2)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/46 "2012-09-27T15:39:09Z")
Only the person saying “I don’t find Asian women attractive” knows whether or not his implicaiton is racist. Would a black man stating, “I’m not attracted to white women” be a racist comment? Would any man saying, “I don’t find men attractive” be sexist or anti-gay? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/47 "2012-09-27T15:52:16Z")
I don’t think the comparisons with sexual orientation make much sense. Whether and to what extent a person is attracted to members of the same sex seems to be pretty much biologically determined. But whether and to what extent a person is attracted to members of particular **ethnicities** has a much wider variety of causes, whether cultural, psychological or social. Yes, in both cases the attraction or lack of attraction is generally _involuntary_, so it’s not like somebody is deliberately rejecting a potential partner out of sheer bigotry. But that doesn’t mean that, say, not being gay is really equivalent in any meaningful way to, say, not finding straight black hair attractive. Those two responses are not coming from the same part of your brain. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/48 "2012-09-28T11:19:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think this is nitpicking. I’ll assume the speaker is aware of what Asian women look like. > > If I said I’m not attracted to tall women, it should be obvious that I haven’t see every tall woman in the world and it is theoretically possible there might be a six foot tall woman I’d find beautiful. But realistically what I’m saying is that I’m familiar with the general concepts of height and women and attractiveness and this was my statement of how these concepts overlapped for me. Tall is a single dimension. “Asian” is not. I suppose you could assume they meant the stereotypical Asian woman. I suspect it means that regardless of appearance or behavior, once the label Asian is applied, the speaker will dislike the “Asian” woman. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/49 "2012-09-28T11:44:20Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Tall is a single dimension. “Asian” is not. I suppose you could assume they meant the stereotypical Asian woman. I suspect it means that regardless of appearance or behavior, once the label Asian is applied, the speaker will dislike the “Asian” woman. I don’t see that as the relevant issue. To me the important distinction is whether the person acknowledges something is his personal feeling or whether he projects his personal feeling as if it was an objective fact. If a person says “I’m scared of black people” it’s a personal feeling and it’s factually true regardless of why the speaker feels that way. But when a person says “black people are scary” he’s projecting his personal feeling on to other people. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/50 "2012-09-29T05:25:22Z")
Totally not racist just to say you don’t find East Asians attractive. It’s racist if you tell them thing in the wrong context, and I don’t think there are many right contexts. It’s racist (and possibly sexist) if you you let this influence your hiring and promotion decisions. I happen to not be attracted to east Asian types. I prefer central Asians, Iranians, Azeris, and Armenians, Mediterranean types from both Europe and Africa, African-American women, and regular white folks over East Asians in that order. These are just my preferences. If I never do harm to an East Asian because of my preferences and do not support others in doing harm, then my preferences are not racist. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/51 "2012-09-29T05:35:45Z")
so, silly question…but is racism always negative? Like if I say I find East Asian men sexier than white guys, would that be racist? Because as I understand it, it would be, but racist isn’t negative or positive it is just a worldview which cognitively categorizes humanity into races (which I find myself doing sometimes, but try really really hard not to. Because to me race is too mirky of a concept and is often abused or misused.) Racism is generally defined as actions, practices, or beliefs that reflect the racial worldview: the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races”. This ideology entails the belief that members of a race share a set of characteristic traits, abilities, or qualities, that traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral characteristics are inherited, and that this inheritance means that races can be ranked as innately superior or inferior to others. (wiki quote) So by saying I find East Asian men sexier than white guys I am ranking their attractiveness but not in a negative way. Racism or being racist isn’t negative unless we conflate it with racial discrimination, which is negative and is often what we really mean when we call someone racist. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/52 "2012-09-29T06:49:43Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > so, silly question…but is racism always negative? > > Like if I say I find East Asian men sexier than white guys, would that be racist? See my previous [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15531295&postcount=45). If you say one race is better than another race, it’s racism. ---
**Author:** ![NamelessKing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b38774/32.png) [@NamelessKing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NamelessKing)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/53 "2012-09-29T07:48:13Z")
> [@cainxinth](#): > > My dad and I got into an argument over whether the following statement is racist: “I find all Asian women unattractive.” I say it’s clearly racist, he disagrees. What does GD think? It isn’t racist. Sexual attraction is based on physical appearance in most cases, and besides that racism is a form of discrimination that supposes that a particular race is superior to others. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/54 "2012-09-29T08:56:12Z")
I’m not sure, maybe there are races of women I’m unattractive to. I think I need to know for sure whether I’m racist or not, I’ll need volunteers… ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/55 "2012-09-29T15:33:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > See my previous [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15531295&postcount=45). If you say one race is better than another race, it’s racism. But it isn’t racial discrimination, right? I am not being negative, like I don’t hate white guys, in fact I am married to one and love him and am very attracted to him. I just tend to find Korean, Japanese, Filipino, etc men more attractive than your average white guy. So This goes back to the original debate. If you are looking at racism as negative, then I don’t think that statement “I do not find Asian women attractive” is discrimination at all. It is just like saying I don’t think overweight women, hairy women, women with small boobies are attractive. It is personal preference. Now if you say “I hate Asian women because they are all ugly” then that IS discrimination and wrong. Like I said, in colloquial terms we conflate racism with racial discrimination, when they aren’t the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/56 "2012-09-29T15:39:39Z")
> [@NamelessKing](#): > > It isn’t racist. Sexual attraction is based on physical appearance in most cases, and besides that racism is a form of discrimination that supposes that a particular race is superior to others. I think we are fighting a losing battle. The term racist or racism has no clearly defined meaning and it doesn’t always denote negative discrimination. For example, I think most of us can admit we think that African American Males are good at or at least play basketball, white guys can’t dance, Asian kids are known for being really good at school or music, Jewish guys are often doctors, lawyers, or producers, and Italians like to eat a lot and have huge families. These aren’t all true, nor are they negative and mean. But they are racist. I think the best way to combat the whole thing is to admit your bias and do things to correct it if it bothers you and you think it is hurting anyone. in conclusion, from wiki > [@](#): > > The exact definition of racism is controversial both because there is little scholarly agreement about the meaning of the concept “race”, and because\*\* there is also little agreement about what does and doesn’t constitute discrimination\*\*. Some definitions would have it that any assumption that a person’s behavior would be influenced by their racial categorization is racist, regardless of whether the action is intentionally harmful or pejorative. Other definitions only include consciously malignant forms of discrimination.Among the questions about how to define racism are the question of whether to include forms of discrimination that are unintentional, such as making assumptions about preferences or abilities of others based on racial stereotypes, whether to include symbolic or institutionalized forms of discrimination such as the circulation of racial stereotypes through the media, and whether to include the socio-political dynamics of social stratification that sometimes have a racial component. Some definitions of racism also include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/57 "2012-09-29T16:19:26Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > But it isn’t racial discrimination, right? I am not being negative, like I don’t hate white guys, in fact I am married to one and love him and am very attracted to him. I just tend to find Korean, Japanese, Filipino, etc men more attractive than your average white guy. So This goes back to the original debate. If you are looking at racism as negative, then I don’t think that statement “I do not find Asian women attractive” is discrimination at all. It is just like saying I don’t think overweight women, hairy women, women with small boobies are attractive. It is personal preference. Now if you say “I hate Asian women because they are all ugly” then that IS discrimination and wrong. > > Like I said, in colloquial terms we conflate racism with racial discrimination, when they aren’t the same thing. You’re arguing two separate points which this thread has discussed. First is the distinction between a personal opinion and a blanket statement. If you say you personally find Asians attractive or you personally find Asians unattractive, it’s just a statement of your personal opinion. It’s no more racist than saying you find redheads attractive or tall people unattractive. Racism is when you project your personal opinion into a blanket statement about the race itself. It’s the difference between saying you find Asians unattractive and saying Asians are unattractive. The first is a statement about yourself; the second is a statement about Asians. The second issue you’re raising is the supposed difference between positive and negative racism. In my opinion, there really isn’t any. You can’t have a positive opinion about the people in one group without it being a negative opinion in comparison about the people who aren’t in the group. You may not see the racism in a statement like “black people are the best athletes” or “Asians are the best students” or “Jews are good with money” but it’s there. Just consider the statement “whites are the best race overall” to make it clear - while it’s supposedly just a positive statement about one group, the reality is that if you say whites are the best, you’re also saying non-whites are not as good as whites. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/58 "2012-09-29T17:05:08Z")
True **Nemo** , great points. I think even trying to conceptualize humanity into races and then making statements, either of personal opinion or not, is still pretty silly. I think maybe Nationality would be a more accurate category, but even then there are vast ethnic and cultural differences within nationalities. Maybe ethic categories could be even more accurate? Or maybe we should just stop concerning ourselves with categorizing people by physical appearance all together? How would that work…I wonder. Is is possible for humanity to stop trying to label people into vast homogenous groups? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/59 "2012-09-29T18:39:03Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > True **Nemo** , great points. > I think even trying to conceptualize humanity into races and then making statements, either of personal opinion or not, is still pretty silly. I think maybe Nationality would be a more accurate category, but even then there are vast ethnic and cultural differences within nationalities. Maybe ethic categories could be even more accurate? Or maybe we should just stop concerning ourselves with categorizing people by physical appearance all together? How would that work…I wonder. Is is possible for humanity to stop trying to label people into vast homogenous groups? I’ve heard the argument made that the solution to racism is to ignore any racial distinctions. It might work but only if you could get everyone to do it. Otherwise, the real world results would just be to protect genuine racism. For example, let’s say we decide to promote a policy of race blindness. We make no acknowledgement of who’s black and who’s white (we’ll simplify the situation in this example by just using two races). We see a city with a million residents that has five thousand employees on the city payroll. We take no notice of this situation because there’s nothing unusual about it. Now suppose we look at the same city without race blindness. We now notice that the city has a population of 700,000 black people and 300,000 white people. But strangely all five thousand city employees are white. That’s an unlikely coincidence. It’s pretty obvious that the city government is discriminating against black people. A government that’s discriminating against 70% of its population is a significant problem but it’s one that you wouldn’t see unless you looked at race. Racism is a problem. And to solve it, you first have to be willing to look to see if it exists. ---
**Author:** ![NamelessKing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b38774/32.png) [@NamelessKing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NamelessKing)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717/60 "2012-09-29T21:10:27Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I think we are fighting a losing battle. The term racist or racism has no clearly defined meaning It does, however. Discrimination is ambiguous, but racism very clearly is about superiority. In other words, saying asian people are better than Europeans is very clearly racist. > [@April\_R](#): > > and it doesn’t always denote negative discrimination. For example, I think most of us can admit we think that African American Males are good at or at least play basketball, white guys can’t dance, Asian kids are known for being really good at school or music, Jewish guys are often doctors, lawyers, or producers, and Italians like to eat a lot and have huge families. Note the keyword discrimination. This is something else entirely from racism. > [@April\_R](#): > > These aren’t all true, nor are they negative and mean. But they are racist. I think the best way to combat the whole thing is to admit your bias and do things to correct it if it bothers you and you think it is hurting anyone. They are discriminatory statements that may or may not be racist depending upon whether in context they ascribe traits of racial superiority. I think what worsens the problem is maintaining a thin skin that takes offense at these sorts of things. Bias always exists, always will. When people start trying to find racism in things that are not racist, they deepen the problem by making people hypersensitive and thus more likely to subjectively experience the phenomenon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-racist/635717.md?page=4)