# Is this rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040 "2008-11-22T22:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/21 "2008-11-23T04:05:28Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Never, ever, in your whole life?:dubious: Not so far. Why is that so hard to believe? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/22 "2008-11-23T04:14:39Z")
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**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/23 "2008-11-23T04:18:55Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I know you say that there is no “bright line”, but there really should be if we are talking about felony convictions. I’m not though. I’m talking more about ethics. Rape via fraud is wrong, and it’s wrong for many of the same reasons other more traditionally accepted forms of rape are wrong (that is, it’s sex without the victim’s valid consent), but the harm done is usually much too small to bother with actual prosecution, and usually isn’t deserving of a sentence comparable to forcible rape (not to mention the practical reasons why). We all know that lying to get sex is wrong. At least, I hope we do. I’m just trying to call a spade a spade here. In the end, I don’t really care if people agree with my reasoning exactly why it’s unethical behavior, as long as they show their potential partners the basic respect to not lie to them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/24 "2008-11-23T04:48:52Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > I’m not though. I’m talking more about ethics. Rape via fraud is wrong, and it’s wrong for many of the same reasons other more traditionally accepted forms of rape are wrong (that is, it’s sex without the victim’s valid consent), but the harm done is usually much too small to bother with actual prosecution, and usually isn’t deserving of a sentence comparable to forcible rape (not to mention the practical reasons why). > > We all know that lying to get sex is wrong. At least, I hope we do. I’m just trying to call a spade a spade here. In the end, I don’t really care if people agree with my reasoning exactly why it’s unethical behavior, as long as they show their potential partners the basic respect to not lie to them. But why is the consent invalid? I agree it’s prolly fraud of some sort, but not rape. Does everyone you sleep with have to know 100% everything about you (including life story) in case there’s something about you that might change their minds? Say in high school you slept with their cousin, and the thought of sex with someone who’s slept with one of their relatives icks em out, but they don’t know you did and you two bang nasties. Did you just commit rape? What if you knew that piece of data would change their minds? What if you didn’t, or didn’t know it was their cousin? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/25 "2008-11-23T05:01:01Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > But why is the consent invalid? I agree it’s prolly fraud of some sort, but not rape. Because if someone makes a decision based on a lie, it’s as if they weren’t allowed to make a decision at all. No, your partner doesn’t need to know your complete life story (actually, she might, only she gets to make that judgment), but if you lie or knowingly omit information that you know she would find pertinent, then her consent doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/26 "2008-11-23T05:13:49Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m with LouisB on this. So, if I am in a nightclub, meet a chick and tell her that I am an advisor to the Governor, inherited millions from my poor dearly departed rich parents, and drive a Jag that is currently in the shop (step into my 1997 Ford Taurus) and tell her that I am Mr. Cool when none of the above turns out to be true, did I rape her? > > If so, then lock up the entire male population of the U.S. Excuse me? Painting the male population with awfully broad brush, aren’t you? Not all of us are scum. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/27 "2008-11-23T05:16:34Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Because if someone makes a decision based on a lie, it’s as if they weren’t allowed to make a decision at all. No, your partner doesn’t need to know your complete life story (actually, she might, only she gets to make that judgment), but if you lie or knowingly omit information that you know she would find pertinent, then her consent doesn’t count. No she had a choice. Weighing in the potential truthfulness of testimony is a part of decision making. She chose to believe he was Brad Pitt, she could of asked for ID. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/28 "2008-11-23T05:23:00Z")
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**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/29 "2008-11-23T05:41:20Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > There had to some force involved in that. > > Wearing a Vader suit and pretending to be the jock boy friend of some chick might work in Revenge of the Nerds, but in real life you’re gonna know pretty quick that the rapists body doesn’t feel like your significant other. Which is why a lot of people that I talked about the story at the time decided that the women knew exactly what was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/30 "2008-11-23T16:13:52Z")
So what if I got a woman into bed, not by lying about my identity, but lying about my job? Let’s say I pretended to be an investment banker, when in reality I was but a lowly McDonalds worker. If she consents to sex, is that rape? ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/31 "2008-11-23T16:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > posted by \*\*jtgain \*\* > If so, then lock up the entire male population of the U.S. I don’t think that most guys lie to have sex. That’s a strange thing to say.😕 I’m a women who loves sex and it’s mildly annoying that you feel that I might need to be tricked to join a man in bed. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/32 "2008-11-23T23:05:36Z")
IANAL, but smells like rape to me. …hm… Maybe we overuse the term “rape.” This is sexual fraud, technically, not sexual assault, but it still seems like a criminal sort of thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/33 "2008-11-23T23:37:49Z")
This seems to me to be identical to the thread awhile back about a guy hooking up with a girl, then slipping into the closet while his friend comes out, the old switcheroo. The consensus in that one was that it was rape (although I disagreed), yet the opinion of this question is split. They seem like the same question, to me. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/34 "2008-11-24T00:10:22Z")
> [@jali](#): > > I don’t think that most guys lie to have sex. That’s a strange thing to say.😕 > > I’m a women who loves sex and it’s mildly annoying that you feel that I might need to be tricked to join a man in bed. You might not. But it might help. And I don’t know that. Wait. Are you hitting on me?😃 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/35 "2008-11-24T00:11:43Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > This seems to me to be identical to the thread awhile back about a guy hooking up with a girl, then slipping into the closet while his friend comes out, the old switcheroo. The consensus in that one was that it was rape (although I disagreed), yet the opinion of this question is split. They seem like the same question, to me. Now, I think that this would be rape. She consented with guy #1, not his friend. How is this any different than tying your girlfriend up, and then calling up your buddies to come over for $50 a throw? ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/36 "2008-11-24T00:51:35Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Now, I think that this would be rape. She consented with guy #1, not his friend. One could say that the person in the scenario the OP presented consented to have sex with Brad Pitt, not the person posing as him [/quote] > [@](#): > > How is this any different than tying your girlfriend up, and then calling up your buddies to come over for $50 a throw? How is that different than jumping out of an airplane over the Pacific? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/37 "2008-11-24T01:17:30Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > One could say that the person in the scenario the OP presented consented to have sex with Brad Pitt, not the person posing as him One could say that the person in the scenario the OP presented consented to have sex with the person posing as Brad Pitt, not him. Not rape. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/38 "2008-11-24T01:34:44Z")
If a woman has willing sex with a man she believes to be Brad Pitt, can Angelina Jolie cite her in a divorce case? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/39 "2008-11-24T01:43:37Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > This seems to me to be identical to the thread awhile back about a guy hooking up with a girl, then slipping into the closet while his friend comes out, the old switcheroo. The consensus in that one was that it was rape (although I disagreed), yet the opinion of this question is split. They seem like the same question, to me. The difference is that in a switcheroo scenario, the target (X) consents to sex with Person A, but Person B actually does the deed. So B never had consent from X. This may or may not legally be considered rape according to local law. It would not be considered rape in my state, as X was not subjected to threats, intimidation, or force\*. But in everyday conversation, “having sex with a person who did not consent to have sex with you” is generally referred to as rape. In a celebrity impersonation scenario, X consents to sex with A and then actually has sex with A. It wasn’t Brad Pitt/Meghan Fox\*\* who received consent, but a person pretending to be one of them. Consent was obtained under a false pretext, but again, whether this would meet the legal definition of rape depends on local law. Some jurisdictions would consider it rape if X’s spouse were the one being impersonated, but I don’t know about celebrity impersonations. It’s definitely _sleazy_, but not necessarily a sex crime. Pitt/Fox probably would have legal grounds to go after the impersonator for damage to their reputation or similar, though. \*I’m presuming that, as in the OP’s scenario, X is of legal age and not physically or mentally incapacitated. If X were any of these things it would be rape even without the A/B switch. \*\*Am I really out of it for having no idea who this is? > [@glee](#): > > If a woman has willing sex with a man she believes to be Brad Pitt, can Angelina Jolie cite her in a divorce case? No, because Jolie and Pitt aren’t legally married and thus cannot get divorced. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040/40 "2008-11-24T02:24:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Am I really out of it for having no idea who this is? On Googling her, it appears that she’s a young lady with broad-spectrum dermal allergies to cotton, wool, polyester, and other fibers. At least, I assume that’s the reason she’s so assiduously avoiding skin contact with said substances. And it appears that her name is spelled without the h. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/474040.md?page=3)