# Is This Rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218 "2012-02-18T02:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/41 "2012-02-18T05:21:20Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > The definition of the word rape is clearly based on meaning 1 given above. You can’t just define “sexual” to mean anything relating to sexual organs and then extend the definition of rape accordingly, especially since it is clearly not non-consensual in any real sense. The point of the thread is **“Is it rape?”** not “Is this right?”. We can disagree entirely with the law without resorting to sensationalism and exaggeration. To be clear, I’m not calling it rape. But I think the state compelling women to submit to a completely unnecessary probing of their sexual organs as a prerequisite to the exercise of a right guaranteed by the Supreme Court is pretty much as odious as requiring blacks to take literacy tests before they could vote. Both are attempts by the state to manipulate, intimidate, harass, coerce, and browbeat particular people into not attempting to exercise their lawful rights. It is hateful, injurious, unethical, and morally wrong to require women to undergo such a procedure not on the professional advice of a physician, but only because of the moral objections of politicians. It is an insult to women and makes a mockery of the whole idea of Americans enjoying their rights without governments intervening without any legitimate interest of the state. How about we require Americans to undergo an invasive psychological evaluation before they can buy a gun? You know, have a psychologist ask potential gun owners questions about their sexual practices, religious beliefs, issues with their parents, feelings of inadequacy or self-doubt, explore just how racially tolerant they may be, and other intrusive questions? You know, just to make sure that no perverts or lunatics can buy a gun. It is voluntary, of course, and a gun buyer can sign a paper saying that he doesn’t want to hear the results of his psychological profile after the exam is completed. Does that sound fair to anyone? By the way, how do you see this exam as “consentual?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/42 "2012-02-18T05:25:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Anyway, if you were to read [HB462](http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?ses=121&typ=bil&val=HB462), the purpose is to determine the gestational age of the fetus prior to the abortion (it even says so right there in the bill), as over the years in Virginia there have been numerous cases of abortion doctors/whatever you want to call them misidentifying the fetus’ age ([Example #1](http://www.jillstanek.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Abofreka1.pdf))([Example #2](http://www.jillstanek.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/myk-1999.pdf)). As noted, whether or not you view the ultrasound is completely optional. What is the medical relevance of requiring a woman to declare in writing that she declined to listen to a fetal heartbeat? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/43 "2012-02-18T05:31:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What is the medical relevance of requiring a woman to declare in writing that she declined to listen to a fetal heartbeat? I’m also not _quite_ convinced that just because this doctor was a hack, the Virginia legislature has to get involved and tell the state’s doctors how to conduct themselves and add steps before a woman can get an abortion. On the other hand it’s very nice to see this abrupt decline in cynicism about government - I see we’re now taking legislators at their word in all matters regarding the laws they pass and the reasons they’ve written them. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/44 "2012-02-18T05:40:45Z")
Incidentally, isn’t it against the law to force medical treatment on a person. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/45 "2012-02-18T05:44:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Why not let the doctor and patient decide if it is medically neccesary to perform an ultrasound to determine gestational age? I swear I’m not trying to snark here … but what need would there be to determine gestational age before an abortion considering … ya know … what’s about to happen? > [@Der Tris](#): > > And those women are generally (probably overwhelmingly) hypocrites. They don’t actually oppose abortion; they just oppose abortion for other women. If they need one, they’ll get it. And you know this because … (like you’re gonna answer) ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/46 "2012-02-18T05:48:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How about we require Americans to undergo an invasive psychological evaluation before they can buy a gun? You know, have a psychologist ask potential gun owners questions about their sexual practices, religious beliefs, issues with their parents, feelings of inadequacy or self-doubt, explore just how racially tolerant they may be, and other intrusive questions? You know, just to make sure that no perverts or lunatics can buy a gun. It is voluntary, of course, and a gun buyer can sign a paper saying that he doesn’t want to hear the results of his psychological profile after the exam is completed. Does that sound fair to anyone? Sounds like a wonderful idea. Then maybe I’ll visit. > [@Ravenman](#): > > By the way, how do you see this exam as “consentual?” How can you not? I see it as consensual in that if you don’t want it to happen it won’t happen. Sounds consensual. At least as consensual as the parting with money that comes after an abortion as I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/47 "2012-02-18T05:49:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Only a person can be the victim of a homicide. . . . Personhood has various different definitions. If the fetus is a person, why isn’t it counted in the census? Trying to shoehorn one definition into an argument regarding a different context entirely is not valid. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/48 "2012-02-18T05:50:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Incidentally, isn’t it against the law to force medical treatment on a person. Once again, it’s not being forced any more than you might be “forced” to get some kind of scan before an operation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/49 "2012-02-18T05:55:24Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > I swear I’m not trying to snark here … but what need would there be to determine gestational age before an abortion considering … ya know … what’s about to happen? Based on the links in post #24, it can be necessary to determine the age in order to decide how to abort the fetus. Later-term abortions are more complicated medical procedures. At least one doctor was doing an incompetent job of that, so the legislature realized it was necessary to require all women to undergo a particular type of exam to determine the gestational age and offer her a chance to listen to the heartbeat and keep records [del]of their evilness[/del] indicating that they were given a chance to see and hear the scans, possibly while that Sarah McLachlan song from the ASPCA ads is playing. For medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/50 "2012-02-18T06:02:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What is the medical relevance of requiring a woman to declare in writing that she declined to listen to a fetal heartbeat? Gravy. Now, to be honest, I’m not sure why you focus on the woman having to declare in writing that she was offered the chance to view the ultrasound/hear the fetal heartbeat, as even if that requirement didn’t exist, chances are you’d _still_ have some qualm with the legislation. > [@Trinopus](#): > > If the fetus is a person, why isn’t it counted in the census? If tourists are persons, why aren’t they counted in the census? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/51 "2012-02-18T06:13:31Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Gravy. Since it’s transparently obvious that there’s no medical purpose and that you’re aware there’s no other purpose, you could’ve saved yourself a bit of time and just typed “None.” ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/52 "2012-02-18T06:19:35Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > How can you not? I see it as consensual in that if you don’t want it to happen it won’t happen. Sounds consensual. At least as consensual as the parting with money that comes after an abortion as I mentioned. I see your point, but I don’t think it can be fairly said that it would be _fully_ consensual. Ever heard of duress? When someone wants an abortion for whatever reason, a lot of the time they’re scared. They’re either in a pregnancy that they didn’t want/plan, or they are having to end a pregnancy they did want for some reason. All they want is for it to all be OVER. So they go in and are told it’s either submit to this type of ultrasound, or they can’t have the abortion. If the ultrasound were medically necessary (IANAD, so maybe in some cases it IS necessary, I don’t know), that would be appropriate and reasonable and the patient would just have to suck it up and deal with it. However considering America’s been doing abortions legally for oh, damn near 40 years (and illegally for decades before that) - most of those years without ultrasound technology - I doubt that in most situations a transvaginal ultrasound would be medically necessary. (Again, IANAD.) If it’s not medically necessary and they’re forced to submit to it anyway for the sake of having the abortion performed, I’m sure there are some that would just go “oh well” and pretty much do what they gotta do to get what they want and just see the ultrasound as a means to an end. For the rest, though, they’d be submitting to a procedure they don’t want and don’t need\* for the sake of having an abortion which is, unfortunately, still legal 'round these parts. I can understand the outcry, and I’m **extremely** pro-life. \*Which could very well drive up the cost of the abortion, which would certainly be more money in somebody’s pockets, not that I’m suggesting anything. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/53 "2012-02-18T06:34:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Since it’s transparently obvious that there’s no medical purpose and that you’re aware there’s no other purpose, you could’ve saved yourself a bit of time and just typed “None.” Sometimes, I suspect I type things out for my own amusement. But, anyway, there are two parts at issue here; the actual ultrasound and the written requirement. The actual ultrasound serves a medical purpose, which is why I suspect you haven’t put much effort into arguing it aside from snark. The other part, well, let’s just say that serves no medical purpose. So what? Are you saying that you’re fine with the first so long as the second isn’t required? Because I could _totally_ jump on board with that. Or is your big beef really the first issue? ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/54 "2012-02-18T06:49:15Z")
If it is solely gestational age then a regular ultrasound along with blood tests would be sufficient to determine the trimester. The legislature, however, has determined that a standard ultrasound while not actually necessary is not sufficient. As far as whether the fetus is a person, let’s not forget that they have also passed a personhood law stating that life begins at conception (convenietly bypassing the actual public voting that has failed miserably in other states), thus paving the way for a total ban on abortions (not to mention many forms of birth control, treatment of ectopic pregnancies etc.) the minute Roe v. Wade is reversed. My question is-what about women with IUDs? Is the government going to track them down and have them forcibly removed so they don’t prevent implantation of a “person”? Back on topic- I’m not sure I would use the word “rape”; I prefer to call it sexual violation and deliberate humiliation. _Sorry to be so upset but as a physician in Virginia I am just so angry…_ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/55 "2012-02-18T06:54:02Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The other part, well, let’s just say that serves no medical purpose. So what? It gives away the store with regard to the intent of the law and the people who wrote it- not that the malpractice cases dating back to 1999 and 2006 were a very convincing fig leaf in the first place. It is simply bad policy to force people to undergo invasive medical procedures just to discourage them from doing something that is legal but offends you personally. You don’t play game like that with medicine. It’s horrendously intrusive and I’d say it’s an abuse of power to use a medical procedure as a weapon that way. Would I be opposed to this law anyway? Yes; heart scan or no heart scan, I’m against the government requiring unneeded medical procedures and using doctors to manipulate patients. But the heart scan thing wipes away the pretense that this law has any other purpose. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/56 "2012-02-18T07:09:09Z")
Frankly, this is disgusting. I think the “rape” description is a suitable hyperbole. The government has a wide variety of mechanisms for discouraging behavior without banning it. If they want to discourage abortion, tax it or something. This is horrible. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/57 "2012-02-18T07:11:36Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > As far as whether the fetus is a person, let’s not forget that they have also passed a personhood law stating that life begins at conception (convenietly bypassing the actual public voting that has failed miserably in other states), thus paving the way for a total ban on abortions (not to mention many forms of birth control, treatment of ectopic pregnancies etc.) the minute Roe v. Wade is reversed. My question is-what about women with IUDs? Is the government going to track them down and have them forcibly removed so they don’t prevent implantation of a “person”? [Women have been charged with murder for miscarriages](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges) in America; so yes, I’d expect just that. Give them a chance and they’ll bend the law any way they can to go after women. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/58 "2012-02-18T07:34:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Women have been charged with murder for miscarriages](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges) in America; so yes, I’d expect just that. Give them a chance and they’ll bend the law any way they can to go after women. So anyway, since you’ve claimed that “they” would beat into submission were it not for the federal government, are you going to explain why that didn’t happen when “they” controlled the federal government or are you just going to continue making wild accusations and refusing to provide evidence for them when asked? Similarly, can you provide links to show prominent Virginia politicians calling for beating women into submission with clubs. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/59 "2012-02-18T07:48:11Z")
On the other hand, I do think that anyone who wants to exercise their right to bear arms should have to get shot first, just to see what it feels like. Obviously every attempt would be made not to kill them. A bullet in the foot perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/60 "2012-02-18T08:29:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Sometimes, I suspect I type things out for my own amusement. But, anyway, there are two parts at issue here; the actual ultrasound and the written requirement. The actual ultrasound serves a medical purpose, which is why I suspect you haven’t put much effort into arguing it aside from snark. The other part, well, let’s just say that serves no medical purpose. So what? Are you saying that you’re fine with the first so long as the second isn’t required? Because I could _totally_ jump on board with that. Or is your big beef really the first issue? Does the actual vaginal ultrasound serve a purpose, though? I had an abortion at a relatively late stage, because, for reasons I won’t go into here, but they were not me just being stupid, I had no idea I was pregnant (as a clue, I was still having periods). I still didn’t need a vaginal ultrasound even though I was 15 weeks along and 16 weeks is the stage at which surgical abortion is necessary, in the UK; I assume that’s similar in the US because it’s for medical rather than political reasons. The normal ultrasound - with the gel on the belly - showed the foetus’s age easily enough. If the pregnancy is obviously so new that the usual belly ultrasound can’t be performed, then there’s no issue about what type of abortion to perform. It might be medically necessary in some cases to rule out ectopic pregancies and the like, and then of course it’s justified. But it’s not something all women just have to go through just to check if they’re pregnant. I don’t think I’d call it rape, but I can see why some people would use that term to highlight the unnecessary and unwanted penetration of a woman’s vagina. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218.md?page=4)