# Is This Rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218 "2012-02-18T02:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TripleFail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@TripleFail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TripleFail)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/61 "2012-02-18T08:52:19Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > As a figure of speech, no it’s not. It’s _really_ dumb and _really_ super insensitive. But, hey, what can you expect from the left? > > Anyway, if you were to read [HB462](http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?ses=121&typ=bil&val=HB462), the purpose is to determine the gestational age of the fetus prior to the abortion (it even says so right there in the bill), as over the years in Virginia there have been numerous cases of abortion doctors/whatever you want to call them misidentifying the fetus’ age ([Example #1](http://www.jillstanek.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Abofreka1.pdf))([Example #2](http://www.jillstanek.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/myk-1999.pdf)). As noted, whether or not you view the ultrasound is completely optional. I am not sure the examples you posted are of relevance. It simple showed the pure incompetence of the doctor in question. In both cases the fetus was determined to be around 24 weeks and the doctors’ estimation were at 12 and 8 weeks. I don’t think creating extra sets of law regarding medical procedure is any cure for the doctor stupidity, after all it’s the doctor carrying out these procedures. It doesn’t matter how good the rules are if the people carrying it out are non-complaint its all pointless. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/62 "2012-02-18T08:53:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Incidentally, isn’t it against the law to force medical treatment on a person. This gets very grey when the person is question is pregnant. The further along in pregnancy, the more medical treatment can be forced on her, in the name of the state’s interest in the fetus. > [@Bozuit](#): > > Once again, it’s not being forced any more than you might be “forced” to get some kind of scan before an operation. As has been repeatedly pointed out, legislators, unless they happen to be doctors, and unless the women in question happen to be their patients, are not the ones who should be deciding what’s medically necessary. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Sometimes, I suspect I type things out for my own amusement. Yeah, I suspect so, too. > [@](#): > > The actual ultrasound serves a medical purpose, No, it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > which is why I suspect you haven’t put much effort into arguing it aside from snark. There’s nothing to argue. You think it’s medically necessary, you prove it. It’s your claim. If hearing from women and nurses and a doctor in this thread don’t convince you that it’s unnecessary, I’m not sure what you’re looking for, anyhow. But I’ll try again: as a nurse, this procedure is not medically necessary most of the time. As a nurse, it’s not standard procedure before abortions. As a nurse, I’ve held the hands of women getting “regular” (abdominal) ultrasounds at 7 weeks of pregnancy. As a woman, I’ve had “regular” (abdominal) ultrasounds at 7 and 10 weeks of pregnancy and, like most ultrasounds at this stage, the fetus was visible and an accurate age estimation made. If a fetus is too small to find with an abdominal ultrasound, then it’s in the legal-to-abort age range anyhow. As a woman, I had a transvaginal ultrasound at 14 weeks - the abdominal showed the fetus just fine, but the transvaginal was needed to find a heartbeat because of the abnormally low implantation of the fetus. The transvaginal ultrasound sucked. It wasn’t painful, but it was \*very \*invasive and uncomfortable and brought up a huge raft of emotional pain in this particular survivor of sexual assault. I’m against \*any \*requirement for medical tests made by people who aren’t a person’s doctor. I’m particularly against this one because it’s invasive, it’s expensive, it requires extra scheduling and potentially an extra office visit and time needed off work, and mostly because it’s NOT NECESSARY. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/63 "2012-02-18T09:05:24Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Does the actual vaginal ultrasound serve a purpose, though? I had an abortion at a relatively late stage, because, for reasons I won’t go into here, but they were not me just being stupid, I had no idea I was pregnant (as a clue, I was still having periods). > > I still didn’t need a vaginal ultrasound even though I was 15 weeks along and 16 weeks is the stage at which surgical abortion is necessary, in the UK; I assume that’s similar in the US because it’s for medical rather than political reasons. The normal ultrasound - with the gel on the belly - showed the foetus’s age easily enough. > > If the pregnancy is obviously so new that the usual belly ultrasound can’t be performed, then there’s no issue about what type of abortion to perform. > > It might be medically necessary in some cases to rule out ectopic pregancies and the like, and then of course it’s justified. But it’s not something all women just have to go through just to check if they’re pregnant. > > I don’t think I’d call it rape, but I can see why some people would use that term to highlight the unnecessary and unwanted penetration of a woman’s vagina. I was under the impression that only very recently has the routine use of TV ultrasound in early pregnancy become common in the USA, my wife’s obstetrician said he had never heard of it being used as a matter of routine in pregnancy as some of her USA friends were telling her(she mentioned it to say she did not want it). Which makes me wonder if there is some soft corruption going on here, wonder if the legislators who wrote this bill have some tie to the company that produces these units? :dubious: Because overnight there will be massive demand as every OB GYN in the state is going to have to purchase a couple. > **[Transvaginal ultrasound: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia](https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003779.htm)** > > Transvaginal ultrasound is a test used to look at a woman's uterus, ovaries, tubes, cervix, and pelvic area. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/64 "2012-02-18T11:50:55Z")
This bill exists because the Republicans swept the Virginia state houses and governorship. As it happens, Republicans, at least many of the ones who were elected in 2010, were highly religious and as it happens, many of those religious Republicans are completely insane. As a cite that very-religious Republicans are complete dipshits, I offer the last two weeks of national politics. Santorum, Darrell Issa, the Catholic Bishops and Asprin McRetard. I’d say that the procedure, if medically unnecessary, is some dude forcing a woman to get vaginally probed. It’s evil and it’s certainly a form of sexual assault. If a man wanted, say treatment for migraines , and the government decided that he should get something shoved up his ass for no medical reason, do you think there would be debate about it? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/65 "2012-02-18T11:57:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You’re partially right. These measures are to stem the number of abortions and perhaps dissaude at least a few from having their fetuses butchered. But is not to “exert power” over women but to protect the lives of the fetuses. A fetus isn’t sentient. Killing it is no worse morally than detaching a feeding tube from a brain-dead motorcyclist. It certainly is exerting power over women. It’s forcing them to live by the nonsense spiritual beliefs you follow. Which, I might add, have zero evidence to back them up. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/66 "2012-02-18T12:18:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As a pro-lifer while I support having at the least requiring women to have ultrasounds and counseling before undertaking an abortion… _Why?_ Do you think the woman doesn’t know what’s going to happen if she goes through with the abortion? Do you think that women say, “Hey, I’ve heard about these abortion thingies, and now that I’m pregnant, I should give it a whirl. It sounds fun!” I promise you- she’s put a lot more thought into the repercussions of the procedure than you have. And how are you going to force the woman to look at the screen? Maybe hold her head in place with some clamps, and Clockwork Orange her eyes open so she’s forced to see it? If the doctor thinks it’s medically important for her to have an ultrasound, only \*then \*is it justified. I thought conservatives were all for \*smaller \*government- is it okay to have government intrusion when it’s a subject you care about? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/67 "2012-02-18T12:22:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So anyway, since you’ve claimed that “they” would beat into submission were it not for the federal government, are you going to explain why that didn’t happen when “they” controlled the federal government or are you just going to continue making wild accusations and refusing to provide evidence for them when asked? “They” did not control the federal government. In fact, a common complaint of the Right rank-and-file has been how the Republican leadership hasn’t pushed their agenda when it could. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/68 "2012-02-18T14:00:27Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > I see your point, but I don’t think it can be fairly said that it would be _fully_ consensual. Ever heard of duress? I might not use the word “duress” but I can accept that language. I agree it’s not “nice” and it’s probably not right, but calling it rape is overly emotive and some might say somewhat insensitive to people who have suffered actual rape. With that in mind actually, this can’t be a nice procedure to go through for women who want an abortion _because of_ rape. > [@PandaBear77](#): > > I’m **extremely** pro-life. You evil, hate-filled misogynist! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/69 "2012-02-18T14:09:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “They” did not control the federal government. In fact, a common complaint of the Right rank-and-file has been how the Republican leadership hasn’t pushed their agenda when it could. Ok, then please provide some links in which Virginia legislators say they’d like to make it legal to “beat women into submission with clubs” if it weren’t for the federal government. If your assertion was correct, it should be very easy to do. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/70 "2012-02-18T14:14:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, then please provide some links in which Virginia legislators say they’d like to make it legal to “beat women into submission with clubs” if it weren’t for the federal government. > > If your assertion was correct, it should be very easy to do. Does metaphorical beating-into-submission with the God Fan Club count? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/71 "2012-02-18T14:14:45Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I might not use the word “duress” but I can accept that language. I agree it’s not “nice” and it’s probably not right, but calling it rape is overly emotive and some might say somewhat insensitive to people who have suffered actual rape. With that in mind actually, this can’t be a nice procedure to go through for women who want an abortion _because of_ rape. That’s what I have been thinking about. There presumably aren’t any exceptions for rape or incest because that would give the lie to the idea that it’s all about medical health. So maybe it isn’t rape when they stick the wand up the vagina of a 12 year old who is carrying her father’s baby, and then offer to let her listen to the heartbeat, but it’s something pretty monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/72 "2012-02-18T15:35:01Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Does metaphorical beating-into-submission with the God Fan Club count? Since Der said: > [@](#): > > The only reason they are pushing for this is because the Federal government won’t let them beat women into submission with clubs like in Saudi Arabia. It’s pretty clear he wasn’t be metaphorical, but unfortunately he’s refused to provide any quotes from Virginia legislators to support his assertion. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/73 "2012-02-18T15:58:18Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I might not use the word “duress” but I can accept that language. I agree it’s not “nice” and it’s probably not right, but calling it rape is overly emotive and some might say somewhat insensitive to people who have suffered actual rape. With that in mind actually, this can’t be a nice procedure to go through for women who want an abortion _because of_ rape. It’s always so nice, the people who are concerned for my feelings, as a rape survivor. It’s funny, they never show up when someone makes rape jokes on TV or something; only when they want to normalize sexual violence of a “lesser” type. But, you take the support you get, right? I have to say, though, your concern is unnecessary. I’ve been raped, and (coincidently!) had a transvaginal ultrasound. The rape was worse but if I’d been made to undergo the ultrasound for no reason in order to have a basic procedure done, it absolutely would have felt like sexual violence. Let’s look at [the FBI’s definition of rape:](http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/attorney-general-eric-holder-announces-revisions-to-the-uniform-crime-reports-definition-of-rape) > [@](#): > > The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim. Now, you guys tell me, how is this _NOT_ rape, by that rule? We have lack of consent, mandated by the state. And we have vaginal penetration with an object. Yup, seems to fit the definition to me! ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/74 "2012-02-18T15:58:46Z")
I wouldn’t use the word rape, but I would certainly use the words “emotional blackmail with an extra heapin’ helpin’ of humiliation”, speaking as a woman who had an abortion many moons ago. And I can tell you that while it would have been adding to an already fraught and upsetting time, it would not have made a damn bit of difference to my decision, it would only have made me a lot less likely to seek a medical professional for any reason in the future. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/75 "2012-02-18T16:32:32Z")
“Rape” is a bit hyperbolic, but no one’s mentioned the likelihood of a vaginal probe triggering PTSD in real rape victims who are trying to abort the result of their rape. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/76 "2012-02-18T19:05:40Z")
Bottom line: Many states would like to severely limit or outlaw abortions. The Supreme Court won’t let them. So they will keep passing laws like this to make abortion as difficult as they can get away with. Since the legislature can’t have an honest debate, then one side can pretend that this is medically necessary and the other side can pretend that it is sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/77 "2012-02-18T19:05:40Z")
Had two babies (both wanted and planned) and never had a vaginal ultrasound. I had the recommended 2 ultrasounds per pregnancy to look at whatever it is that they look at. I was always told that vaginal ultrasound was a possibility if the abdominal didn’t pick up the baby correctly. The second time, they told me that it was now recommended to do it automatically and I pleaded to not do it. It looked really uncomfortable/painful and was definitely invasive and I was happy about my pregnancies. I also had an ultrasound for a misplaced IUD and I again avoided the vaginal ultrasound. The tech was telling me that it really hurt some women. I’ll also be honest that the early ultrasound pictures always looked like a random array of blotches to me. I could barely make out anything on the second ultrasound. I don’t see any medical reason for this and I find it repugnant that the way that these folks decide to discourage abortions is to pick an unnecessary, expensive, deliberately invasive and uncomfortable procedure. “Rape” is a bit hyperbolic but this is really disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/78 "2012-02-18T19:45:31Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > “Rape” is a bit hyperbolic, \ But not very. If some boss told a woman she had to submit to being probed with a huge dildo or be fired, it would at the least be considered sexual assault and many would call it a form of rape I’m sure. At this point it’s more splitting hairs than anything. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/79 "2012-02-18T20:03:15Z")
Didn’t some of the legislative discussions involving the procedure say that the clear intent of the law was to humiliate and embarass women into avoiding abortions? It may not be rape, but it’s very much akin to it. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218/80 "2012-02-18T20:41:39Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > It’s always so nice, the people who are concerned for my feelings, as a rape survivor. It’s funny, they never show up when someone makes rape jokes on TV or something; only when they want to normalize sexual violence of a “lesser” type. But, you take the support you get, right? How is anyone supposed to “show up” in response to a joke on TV? Besides, jokes are jokes, this is reality. You’re comparing apples to fictional oranges. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I have to say, though, your concern is unnecessary. I’ve been raped, and (coincidently!) had a transvaginal ultrasound. The rape was worse but if I’d been made to undergo the ultrasound for no reason in order to have a basic procedure done, it absolutely would have felt like sexual violence. The point was that if you get raped, then find out you’re pregnant, then have to undergo the ultrasound before an abortion, it’s going to be that much worse than both things happening but unrelated. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Now, you guys tell me, how is this _NOT_ rape, by that rule? We have lack of consent, mandated by the state. And we have vaginal penetration with an object. Yup, seems to fit the definition to me! Because it’s not without consent. I’ve said that enough times. You don’t have to agree but it’s getting a bit circular. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-rape/613218.md?page=5)