# Is this really a microagression? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 30, 2024, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485 "2024-08-30T20:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/141 "2024-09-02T16:32:47Z")
We do tend to assume that the decision that requires the least amount of effort is usually the right one. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/142 "2024-09-02T17:35:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, I read that example, and was thinking, “I’d absolutely be one of the guys sitting there waiting for someone else to volunteer.” I’m a woman, and it depends on my mood, but i often do volunteer to take notes when someone needs to volunteer. I take good notes, and get pissed when the notes are either just a verbatim upchuck of every word said, or miss key points. But it’s a lot of work. So i often don’t volunteer. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/143 "2024-09-02T17:39:15Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Last week, someone in our group had to take notes. I didn’t want to, so I just sat there and waited for someone else to volunteer. I wasn’t trying to be sexist, but (as this thread shows), I was engaging in a sexist pattern of behavior according to my gender role. It just so happens that another guy did take the notes, so quite possibly my (lack of) action had no effect. That doesn’t change the fact that what I did failed to consider gender dynamics and (frankly) was inconsiderate to other people, and this thread is a good remind why that was still not okay. I think “microagression” is a perfectly accurate word for it. I want to be clear what is being said here, because it seems a step past what I described in the OP. Please correct me if I misinterpret, but it seems you are saying that every guy in that meeting who failed to volunteer to take notes was inherently committing a microaggression against every woman in that meeting, even if his reason for refusing to volunteer was as simple as “because I fucking don’t want to”. This is because the women will implicitly feel more pressured to volunteer than the men since taking notes is traditionally a woman’s job. Is this accurate? If so, it follows that the only way a man in that situation could avoid committing a microaggression would be to volunteer for the job. Agreed? Again, if that follows, then you are saying every man in that meeting has a duty to volunteer, otherwise he is doing something wrong (committing a microaggression). I’m not sure I agree… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/144 "2024-09-02T18:06:52Z")
Mostly accurate. Once the notetaking is laid out to wait for volunteers, or (as in the original situation) mindlessly defaulting to a woman, that’s letting the weight of the cultural pattern of gender roles take an outsized role in determining who does what. Every individual responds differently, but the general pattern is beyond any of us. The only way around it is to avoid such situations: designate a notetaker for reasons that are clearly not gender-based, or manage it to make sure that the guys are doing their share. This stuff goes deep: girls were socialized to have legible handwriting in a way that guys aren’t, and it’s often the case that a random adult male just doesn’t take good notes, and a random adult female does. (I say “were” because I don’t know how much handwriting kids do anymore.) Anyway, the short answer is that it’s not even usually your fault if you’re committing microaggressions. We’ve been trained to do so since childhood. It doesn’t make you a bad person. It **does** make you annoying to women and minorities, and who wants to be annoying? Who wants to be the exasperating part of someone else’s day? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/145 "2024-09-02T18:25:35Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > if that follows, then you are saying every man in that meeting has a duty to volunteer, otherwise he is doing something wrong (committing a microaggression). I don’t think he’s got a duty to volunteer instantly. I do think that, if that silence stretches on, if somebody really does need to take notes and he hasn’t done it recently and it’s reasonably part of his job – then yes, he ought to volunteer. And if notetaking isn’t necessary or he just did it last time or the time before or it really isn’t part of the job – then he ought to speak up and say that. The last of those, in a fashion that makes it clear he doesn’t think it’s the random woman’s job, either. At planning board meetings at which the clerk (whose job it actually is) can’t be there, I’ve known the chair to take notes. There’s also either a tape running, or, these days, a Zoom open and recording. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/146 "2024-09-02T18:33:23Z")
Make the choice that might be a bit harder. Volunteer occasionally, and get other men to volunteer occasionally if you can, and do a bit to balance the books, so to speak. Solving microaggressions is rarely an “all or nothing” proposition, but it is _never_ a “I can’t do it all, so I won’t do it at all” proposition. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/147 "2024-09-02T19:18:48Z")
fair, and well said ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/148 "2024-10-02T15:34:06Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Yes she could, just as easily as a man could – if she didn’t happen to have a lifetime of acculturation that she is expected to take on menial tasks so men can be freed up for the important stuff. But that would be a rare woman. And don’t forget, if the woman doesn’t take notes she’s a selfish bitch. If a man doesn’t take notes he’s prioritizing his work. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Calling something aggression which is not aggression is a kind of Newspeak. But it is an aggression. It is a man showing dominance over a woman by putting her in her vagina-determined place. You take notes while the men talk. You go get coffee because the men have work to do. I’ll call you, “Dear.” while I use professionally-appropriate titles for the men. Your job is supposed to be the caring one and not a manger. &c. One issue I see here, besides white males (of which I am one) being intentionally blind to the interactions with women, is the lack of us (white males) to take the concept of anti-racism to gender situations. We know that it is not sufficient to simply not be a racist. We have an obligation to work against racism in the system. That’s why all the rationale behind Jane taking notes (It’s her turn. She takes good notes. &c.) is bullshit. Because even if it were true (and I’m sure many guys would rationalize it that way) it still perseverates the stereotypes. What the manager needs to do is make sure Jane is NOT taking notes, NOT getting coffee, is NOT overspoken or disregarded by the men in the meeting. Is called by her last name and not first (if he addresses men by their last name), is invited to cigars by the lake along with the men, etc. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/149 "2024-10-02T15:48:26Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > That’s why all the rationale behind Jane taking notes (It’s her turn. She takes good notes. &c.) is bullshit. Because even if it were true (and I’m sure many guys would rationalize it that way) it still perseverates the stereotypes. huh? No it doesn’t. Having EVERYONE have a turn taking notes on an equitable rotating basis destroys the stereotype. It says we are all equal here and no one is better or worse off than anyone else. You are not treating anyone differently based on sex. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What the manager needs to do is make sure Jane is NOT taking notes This would be a perfect way to engender bad feelings and low morale among the workforce. Single someone out for special treatment because they are a woman. I hope you are not a manager. You don’t think all the men are going to start talking about how you (the manager) are treating Jane better than them? Hey maybe you’re sleeping with her right? What you are proposing is going to further perpetuate the stereotypes about women, not destroy them. Treating people equally is the way to go, exempting people from work everyone should be taking a turn doing because they are a woman is exactly the wrong approach. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/150 "2024-10-02T16:44:12Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > huh? No it doesn’t. Having EVERYONE have a turn taking notes on an equitable rotating basis destroys the stereotype. It says we are all equal here and no one is better or worse off than anyone else. You are not treating anyone differently based on sex. Except in practice it almost never is done equitably. Even if yes the rotating system works, people still make comments that are microaggressions. For example, when the male Denver sheriff was replaced it was by a female. Equitable right? [Except the man was introduced by talking about how qualified he was and the woman was introduced by talking about she had a great smile.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/denver-mayoral-election/982201) What would be said by men workers if a man refused to take notes vs if a woman refused to? We saw it in a thread I started and here - men are clueless that they are creating microaggressions. > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > This would be a perfect way to engender bad feelings and low morale among the workforce. Single someone out for special treatment because they are a woman. And we see your argument in racism I’m colorblind so I treat everyone equally. That’s good enough. NO IT ISN’T! The correct approach is to acknowledge that Jane’s experiences are different than the men and so no, she shouldn’t take notes because over her career she has long since taken her equitable share of notes. What should be done is the manager explicitly states, “Jane you might have a different take on this given your experiences. I want you to focus on the discussion and not notes” Your argument is that equality is sufficient or fair. It is not - **equity** is. [![](https://interactioninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IISC_EqualityEquity.png) ](https://interactioninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IISC_EqualityEquity.png) > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > I hope you are not a manager. Why, because I’m willing to challenge traditional stereotype or ignore they exist? Or is it because I celebrate diversity instead of expecting everyone to conform to MY white male standard? > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > You don’t think all the men are going to start talking about how you (the manager) are treating Jane better than them? I’m not afraid to talk to my workers about equity vs equality > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > Hey maybe you’re sleeping with her right? Aaaaaaaand there we go. My management style reflects poorly on Jane as the assumption is she is a whore sleeping her way to the top. > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > What you are proposing is going to further perpetuate the stereotypes about women, not destroy them. Nope. You are incorrect. > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > Treating people equally is the way to go, exempting people from work everyone should be taking a turn doing because they are a woman is exactly the wrong approach. Again, you should study what equity is and how to implement it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/151 "2024-10-02T16:53:59Z")
Coincidentally, yesterday I completed the mandatory annual workplace violence training and the list of the forms of workplace violence included major and minor aggressions. (The training includes a video simulation of an active shooter incident, which at this point I’ve seen _far_ too often, though this year they had an option to skip it.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/152 "2024-10-02T17:05:09Z")
This is why managers should always carry a twenty sided die on them at all times. “Anyone want to volunteer to take notes? No? Okay, note taking duty today goes to… [rolls] …Steve!” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/153 "2024-10-02T17:06:24Z")
My final manager was a crappy manager in many ways. But one thing he did right was that he always took the notes. Then he published them and invited us to add details and make corrections. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/154 "2024-10-02T17:07:03Z")
Sorry, my level 16 Paladin was cursed by an evil wizard to never have ink for his quill. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/155 "2024-10-02T18:00:21Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > she shouldn’t take notes because over her career she has long since taken her equitable share of notes. or maybe she has never taken notes in her entire career because she has always had managers like you who like to treat people differently based on characteristics that have no bearing on the ability of someone to do work. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Except in practice it almost never is done equitably. a rotating basis is by definition equitable. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Why, because I’m willing to challenge traditional stereotype or ignore they exist? Or is it because I celebrate diversity instead of expecting everyone to conform to MY white male standard? neither. It’s because you create excuses to differentiate people and treat them unequally when there is no apparent reason to do so. You would be a morale killer in the corporate world. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I’m not afraid to talk to my workers about equity vs equality this is irrelevant in the present context. Jane is every bit as capable as the guys. She doesn’t need special treatment, she needs equal treatment. Are you equating Jane to the small guy in the picture you posted? She can’t quite measure up to the others (men) unless she gets additional help? What a misogynistic and paternalistic viewpoint you have! > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Nope. You are incorrect. sorry, I know it’s not your intent, but that is exactly what you are doing. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Again, you should study what equity is and how to implement it. Again, I absolutely know what equity is, and it is irrelevant here. Jane does not need special treatment to compete on equal footing with the guys. She needs equal treatment. Your viewpoint otherwise is belittling and infantilizing to her. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/156 "2024-10-02T18:21:46Z")
I think that the responses to me show why microaggressions are still an issue. Just treat everyone the same even though time and time again we have shown that that fails for many different reasons. > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > Again, I absolutely know what equity is, I don’t think that word means what you think it does. > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > She needs equal treatment. Your viewpoint otherwise is belittling and infantilizing to her. Again, you are wrong. She needs to have her diverse viewpoint acknowledged and not buried in an arbitrary standard determined by the majority. > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > Are you equating Jane to the small guy in the picture you posted? She can’t quite measure up to the others (men) unless she gets additional help? What a misogynistic and paternalistic viewpoint you have! No I wasn’t so looks like your conclusion as to my motivation is bullshit. Bu interesting you went there so I’m guessing that’s how YOU view Jane. The picture shows that in equity you treat people as individuals and not as all the same. That is the point you are missing. But I’ll tell you what. If the women in this thread that have experienced sexism tell me I’m wrong then I will accept that. Not from someone whose argument only superficially addresses the real issues. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/157 "2024-10-02T18:39:08Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No I wasn’t so looks like your conclusion as to my motivation is bullshit. Bu interesting you went there so I’m guessing that’s how YOU view Jane. lol, really? You’re the one that posted it! I just told you I view Jane as every bit the equal of the men in the company and not needing (and probably not wanting!) special treatment from you like you are some kind of benevolent father figure who doesn’t think she can hack it without your fatherly protection. And here’s the kicker for you, she’s not going to think of you as some kindly benefactor, she’s going to think of you as some creepy weirdo with outdated views on what women are capable of. Again, It’s demeaning to women for you to think they need special treatment for there to be equity in the workplace. I have a very simple question for you, what is it about Jane that makes you think she needs special treatment in the workplace? You agree that she is every bit as intelligent, efficient, and capable as the men right? So what makes you think that people on equal footing and with equal capabilities should not be treated equally? And more practically, what makes you think that if you don’t treat them equally, you won’t face backlash and rebellion from those that are not getting the special treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/158 "2024-10-02T18:45:26Z")
I’m done with the back-and-forth with you as clearly we have diametrically different views on equity and the reality of the treatment of women in the workplace. If we continue, a mod is going to pop in and tell us to take it to The Pit. I have said I will let the women in this thread determine who is correct between us and I’m leaving it there. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/159 "2024-10-03T01:00:00Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > If the women in this thread that have experienced sexism tell me I’m wrong then I will accept that. you are correct, and I appreciate your attempts to educate. you are also right it’s pointless to continue in this specific case. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485/160 "2024-10-03T02:49:54Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > you are correct, and I appreciate your attempts to educate. you are also right it’s pointless to continue in this specific case I also agree. You are correct and I too appreciate your efforts. It is pointless to continue . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-really-a-microagression/1006485.md?page=9)