A check would have MY address, but not the bank’s. At least to get the bank’s address from a check you’d have to look up branches of that particular bank.
I think what this comes down to is that if you’re not comfortable giving out the information, don’t do it. I would be HIGHLY suspicious of such a request unless it was a longtime customer, and even then I probably wouldn’t do it. If that makes me paranoid, then so be it. None of the information is secret, but put together it makes for a potential problem.
Friend obfusciatrist, if someone is suspicious of the system to a point where they don’t even write checks, then I suppose not giving out an account number is a similar level of risk aversion. But a reasonable and prudent person accepts the risks of paying for things with checks. Refusing to use checks because you don’t think they’re safe has crossed well into paranoia.
You’re right on the money with this:
However, credit card numbers are a different beast all together. Holding a credit card number and the expiration date (the common authentication mechanism) is enough to buy things. And these are both printed on the card. Having a bank account number is not enough.
We just have a lot of people here who are ignorant of very usual business practices. You can find hundreds, if not thousands of bank account details online posted by companies so payments can be sent to them.
GQ is not the place to disseminate ignorance and paranoia. Those who say there is risk should show some support for what they say. So far in this thread we have much unsupported opinion and precious little factual information. If you do not have information supporting that you are talking out of ignorance.
Again: show me the evidence which supports the view that it is risky. None has been shown so far. How much money is lost annually by people who have given their bank account details in order to receive a wire transfer?
My question is how can I sign up for Ing Direct (a savings bank) with just my bank account details (and SSN, but that’s probably for the 1099) and transfer money into the new account from my normal bank account. All without doing anything other than “proving” to them that I own the account, by verifying some transfers in. Same deal with all the bill payment services.
Are they just considered trusted, since they are also a bank?
This link from a bank says to make sure that you be sure you have all your checks.
This page (fourth bullet point) says that crooks only need your checking account number to get money from your account.
This article discusses (in vague terms) how crooks can withdrawl money from your account with only checking account (routing numbers are probably also required) information.
I found those links in about 5 min. and I’m sure that more could easily be found. I’m not saying that this was a case of fraud, but why put yourself at risk like that? Yes you use checks to buy groceries, pay bills, etc. But why take the extra risk of giving that information out if you don’t need to?
You know it irks me that people post links which do not even support their positions. I have to read a whole page several times just to make sure I didn’t miss anything. So you might want tio cite the relevant parts. Your first link just says
Well, duh! Again, it is a page warning about scams and does not specifically say giving out your bank account info to anyone puts you at risk. I have said myself you should not give out your address or other personal information unless you have a reason. I am tired of reading generic anti-scam stuff which does not apply any more than not giving out your address or phone number. Please show me cites with cases of people who have lost money by giving their account number to someone under the circumstances mentioned in the OP: Someone who gave their account number to someone who was making a legitimate payment to that account. Just show me. Show me how many people lose money like that every year.
And I’ll tell you more: You are much more at risk when you authorise the utility companies to charge your account directly because they can wipe out your account and there’s little you can do if they refuse to reimburse you. I know this well because I had a dispute with the phone co over a huge charge which they had already charged me. You have very little protection in this case because you have authorised the charges without specifying amounts.
But, again, (and I am getting tired of asking), please show me all those cases of people having lost money by the mere act of giving out their account information. Please?
By the way, just use common sense: you have a contract with the bank where you deposit your money with them. I cannot see how they could defend a lawsuit claiming they gave your money to someone else just because that person had your account information. It is their burden to prove they were acting on your orders.
Your link shows the case of a woman who had something charged by some other company and when she complained it was reimbursed immediately. Which supports my point.
banks do not check small amounts too closely as it is cheaper to correct the errors after they ocurr. Even large amounts can fall through the cracks until someone complains. Just last week I had a case. Company A was suposed to pay company B several thousand dollars in commissions for product sold to Company C and I am arranging and expediting it. I give company A the bank account details of company B so they an transfer the money. After a while Comapny B had not received the money and company A says they have sent it. It turns out that the account info was all correct but the wire transfer had a line stating “Commissions for Company C”. Since compnay C is a huge company, well known to the bank, the teller credited company C without looking further. It was straightened out but comapny C got to learn how much B was making on commissions and it wa a huge fiasco because come idiot at the bank was not paying attention. In any case, the bank pays for its own mistakes, not the customer.
sailor, I’m sorry you don’t think any of those links support my position. I realise that two of them were merely guidlines.
Let me quote from the third link.
Bolding mine.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my first post. I’m saying that having that information out there makes it easier to become a victim of crime. I’m not saying that this was a case. I don’t understand why you think it’s a stretch to say that this is yet one more possible way for thieves to get this information.
on preview:
Yes, that the bank reimbursed the person. I guess I just don’t understand why you would take the risk when there are much safer ways to finish the transaction.
I’m sure these companies must be nearly bankrupt with all the theft taking place. If only they knew to keep this information secret, they could have avoided it! What a shame.
Being careful about who you give your cheque account info to means only giving it to people who have a legitimate need for it, ie an international money transfer.
So you agree that all the information is on your check and every time you pay with a check you are giving out your bank account information which is what I said. Note that the woman had not given her account information but the guys got it anyway so I can’t see how it supports your position rather than “don’t have a bank account at all”. And you agree the bank made a mistake and immediately corrected it which supports my position that she did not lose money. Your argument seems to suport the position: “Don’t use banks because they sometimes make mistakes” But not “don’t give out your bank account details under any circumstance”.
Saying that giving your bank account number is setting yourself up to lose your money in the account is like saying giving out your home address is setting yourself up for a burglary. Except it is much easier to ransack your home than to get the moeny from the bank. And your home can be ransacked randomly even if you didn’t give the addres to anyone. The accound could be raided just as easily (which is to say with great difficulty) by someone who got the information but not from you (as in the example cited).
The fact that a web page says something does not make it so until it is shown with clear evidence. When what a source says goes against all evidence then it must be questioned. Some pages like the Nigerian scam are just guidelines for people who would consider entering into the scam. They are trying to scare people off and the fact that they say something doe not make it so. The evidence for now points in my favor and against you. Please kindly address my arguments:
1- If this is possible why can’t anybody find multiple cases and statistics showing how much money people lose this way? Not one single case has been shown. I am sure that by a quirk of circumstances there might be an improbable case and yet no one can find it. I want statistics showing the losses so we can compare it with credit card fraud. Anyone who thinks having a bank account is risky should not hav a credit card at all as the risk is many times higher. Actually, I know a guy who does not use credit cards at all because he thinks they are risky and they are used to spy on him. The guy is otherwise an idiot and has a reputation for being out there on the fringe.
2- Read your bank contract and show me where it says the bank can give your money to anyone who has the account number and you are shit out of luck. Please tell me of a bank which says this. Give me a name. Give me a web site of a bank who states this in their terms and conditions.
3- Show me Court rulings upholding this. I am sure there would have been plenty of lawsuits from people trying to recover their money. Please show me court rulings against them. If you are right they should be plentiful. Where are they?
4- Why do so many people and companies publicise their account on the Net and other places if it is so dangerous? How do you explain this? I can give you dozens of account numbers I have from companies I have done business with.
5- How exactly does this work when it happens? For anyone who has worked with banks it is just ludicrous to say you are authorised to get someone’s money if you just have the account details. Anyone who knows anything will tell you that. Show me people who work for a bank or who do a lot of business with banks who say this. Do you really think you can walk into a bank with nothing more than an account information and say “the owner said I could take the money” and they will give you the money?
Your evidence is inexistent and your arguments extremely weak. Just because some ignorant people have told you that does not make it so. Please address my arguments one by one and in detail and just stop spreading misinformation based on nothing more that “I found a web page”. I can find you a bunch of web pages promising free electricity, penis enlargement and plenty of other things which are not true. Let’s use some common sense here.
Skogcat, I would have to read the law but I believe this is in case where the consumer is somehow at fault also like if he lost the checkbook and his checks were used. If the customer is not at fault at all I do not believe the bank can say “sorry, our mistake but you get to pay $50”. I believe you are protected to the last cent. Of course, once you get lawyers involved it can get as complicated as you want.
This page on the Nigerian scam says that one way the criminals obtain money after you hand over your bank account details is:
This article on clearing house fraud says that fraudsters can use your account number and sort code to steal your money. It doesn’t go into details on how the fraud is perpetrated, but that is hardly surprising.
Other fraud can involve finding someone’s address and bank details, then getting their address changed so that bank statements, checks and credit cards are sent to a new address which a thief can intercept (such as an empty property). Many banks accept changes of address by phone or mail, and once you have the bank sending you someone else’s mail you may be able to obtain a credit, ATM, or debit card and make withdrawals. Banks will check these things to a certain extent (often the only validation they have is a signature), but if you can pull the scam on many people you only need a few to get lucky.
My opinion: Sailor is totally and completely right and the rest of you nuts are wrong.
The facts: Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code (a law adopted in varying forms by every single state) has a rule called the Properly Payable rule. Basically, a bank cannot pay an item presented against your account unless the item is properly payable, meaning (loosely) that you authorized the specific payment in the specific amount.
So, if someone takes money out of your account without your consent, you simply call the bank and tell them that the item was not properly payable, and the bank will recredit your account immediately.
And, finally, it really is sad to see so much ignorance being not simply disseminated but absolutely flouted in this thread. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I have neither the time, nor inclination to answer each one of your items, point by point. I never said that this was a scam. I said that criminals can take money if they have only your checking account and routing number.
So now a crook has the account number, right? So how does that help them get money from the account?
Okay, so the crooks got the money. Well, it’s my banks fault for giving it to them, I’m not liable!
Well, that’s fine and good, but I know that my bank will believe me!
Okay. You are absolutely right. I could find no cases cited where a person on ebay had given out there checking account number to recieve a wire transfer and then been taken advantage of.
I just wanted to show you, that yes!, a theif can get money from your checking account with the information that the buyer requested in the OP. Do you still disagree that it’s not possible for a theif get money from your checking account with that information?
After reading that document further, and talking with a friend in the banking industry, I declare that I am absolutley wrong.
The document I linked to is one in which the FTC announced rule changes (in 1996) that will not allow a criminal to do something like this. I apologize for the incorrect information.
TaxGuy, thanks for your post. Sometimes it is disheartening to have to fight popular conceptions which are believed just because of widespread sheer ignorance.
I post a long list of objections and nobody addresses them but they refuse to change their mind.
And so my objections stand. You have not been able to show any proof to the contrary.
No, you have not proven they can get maney from your account with just that information. They can use that information to counterfeit a check or other instrument which, as i am tired of repeating, they can do if you pay someone by check and, therefore, it is not any more dangerous. So, just the information is not sufficient, they have to forge a document. Giving out the account information is no more dangerous than paying by check. In any case, if the document was forged the bank is on the hook and not you.
Again, stop telling me some page says it is possible. Show me some examples. Not one single solitary example has been mentioned yet. For something so dangerous not one single example has been given. You’d think we’d have millions of dollars lost every year to this type of fraud.
Look, I am getting really tired of just answering the same stuff over and over. Please address my objections or I am not wasting any more time on this.