# Is this scheme the proper explanation of why the upper part of the moon is illuminated ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098 "2014-04-27T08:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/21 "2014-04-27T18:13:28Z")
> [@karol](#): > > Here’s a scheme made by one of reddit users to explain why the upper left part of the moon is illuminated even though the sun is visibly lower above the horizon than the moon. > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](http://imgur.com/EUTQWWA) > > Concerns this video: [http://youtu.be/-5EOWcuji3I?t=43s](http://youtu.be/-5EOWcuji3I?t=43s) > > This not my video, ignore what the guy is saying, just watch the relation between the way the moon is illuminated and where the sun is. The imgur illustration is false, to begin with, since it places the sun behind the moon, relative to the observer, while the actual (poorly shot) video indicates that the sun would be behind the observer if it had been shot with a fish-eye lens. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/22 "2014-04-27T18:14:44Z")
That said, I will note: > [@karol](#): > > Please justify your viewpoint. You need to provide your own explanation in your own words, or I will shut down this thread. We are not here to “justify” anything to you. You need to make a coherent argument to be debated or you are in the wrong forum–and possibly the wrong message board. I will further note that you took a rather insulting tone with your correspondents in the one MPSIMS thread where I watched you play. I am letting you know that if you continue to insult other posters, you will jeopardize your posting privileges, here. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/23 "2014-04-27T20:14:29Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think the sun is right where it should be to illuminate the moon as it does. I don’t agree with the diagram in the OP, though; It shows the angle between the sun and moon (relative to the observer) as much too small. In the video, it shows the sun, then swings well around to show the moon. **I would say the sun is about 45° above the horizon in the west, and the moon about the same angle in the east.** (Or the directions could be reversed, depending if it’s morning or afternoon.) I don’t have a diagram to back it up, but there’s nothing mysterious about it. > [@karol](#): > > Well, I think you need to look closer then. > > [http://koti.kapsi.fi/~leknu/moon-sun.jpg](http://koti.kapsi.fi/~leknu/moon-sun.jpg) I was describing the video you linked to in the OP, and that picture has nothing to do with the video. I’ve already looked as closely as I need to. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/24 "2014-04-27T20:46:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s the same reason why the shortest path between the US and Europe passes further north than either of the endpoints. Maps and photographs are flat, but the Earth and the sky are spherical. Precisely. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/25 "2014-04-27T21:09:54Z")
[QUOTE=Rudyard Kipling, “The Village That Voted The Earth Was Flat”] Hear ther truth our tongues are telling! Spread ther light from shore to shore! God has given Man a dwelling Flat and flat for evermore! When from Earth ther floods retreated, When ther deeps were undesigned, He with rule and level meted Habitation for mankind! Hear the truth our tongues are telling! Spread ther light from shore to shore! O be faithful! O be truthful! Earth is flat for evermore! [/quote] Curse Nature, she gets ahead of you every time. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/26 "2014-04-27T22:40:18Z")
I have a question. If the OP really believes that the Earth is hollow, and we are living on the inside (it worked for Yonada) can he explain where astronauts go when they are launched? For bonus points, he can explain all the videos they have taken over the years showing a spherical Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/27 "2014-04-27T22:43:18Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I have a question. > > If the OP really believes that the Earth is hollow, and we are living on the inside (it worked for Yonada) can he explain where astronauts go when they are launched? > > For bonus points, he can explain all the videos they have taken over the years showing a spherical Earth. I tried asking that in one of the other threads - I think he believes nearly everything is a hoax. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/28 "2014-04-27T22:48:09Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I tried asking that in one of the other threads - I think he believes nearly everything is a hoax. I guess _fingers in ears, la, la, la, I can’t hear you_ always works! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/29 "2014-04-27T23:53:31Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I have a question. > > If the OP really believes that the Earth is hollow, and we are living on the inside (it worked for Yonada) can he explain where astronauts go when they are launched? > > For bonus points, he can explain all the videos they have taken over the years showing a spherical Earth. IIRC, he goes for a combination of “it’s a conspiracy” and the warped-spacetime model\* of the hollow Earth. Although they really aren’t compatible; the whole point of the warped-spacetime model is that it looks exactly like a conventional model of the universe, so there’s nothing for a conspiracy to hide. - All the universe is contained in the Earth, and space is shaped so it _just looks_ like Earth is orbiting the Sun and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/30 "2014-04-28T00:03:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > IIRC, he goes for a combination of “it’s a conspiracy” and the warped-spacetime model\* of the hollow Earth. Although they really aren’t compatible; the whole point of the warped-spacetime model is that it looks exactly like a conventional model of the universe, so there’s nothing for a conspiracy to hide. > > - All the universe is contained in the Earth, and space is shaped so it _just looks_ like Earth is orbiting the Sun and so forth. This reminds me of what happened yesterday evening. I went to pick up our carry-out order at a local Vegan Restaurant. While I was waiting, I noticed some flyers on the counter. Picking one up, I saw that it was from the local “Chemtrails” conspiracy group (they call it “geoengineering” now). I was going to say to the owner that those guys were certifiable, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that either a) he was a believer, and he wouldn’t listen to what I had to say or b) he wasn’t a believer, but rather was willing to support any anti-establishent cause, and so he wouldn’t remove them anyway. You just can’t convince people who are impervious to reason. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/31 "2014-04-28T07:02:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > IIRC, he goes for a combination of “it’s a conspiracy” and the warped-spacetime model\* of the hollow Earth. Although they really aren’t compatible; the whole point of the warped-spacetime model is that it looks exactly like a conventional model of the universe, so there’s nothing for a conspiracy to hide. I never really got to the bottom of what he was claiming either - in some of the videos he linked, it was almost as if he was saying that reality itself has a fisheye lens effect built into it (although curiously, one that only affects things in the background, if they are planets). In others it seemed like there was an argument that the convex Earth was just a simple illusion of refraction in the atmosphere (and yet, this illusion somehow occasionally didn’t happen when you take a picture through a zoom lens). I’m sort of hoping the OP will engage a bit more, now that this conversation is in GD - these discussions can be fascinating, no matter how strange or wrong the starting point, if the OP will only try to explain himself in his own words. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/32 "2014-04-28T14:17:31Z")
**Karol** , would you kindly present your model of the local cosmos? Like, if you were to ask me what model I adhered to, I could show you [that model](http://eyes.nasa.gov/index.html). If you were to ask a flat-earther what model they adhered to, they would probably show you something like [this](http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj135/Starman937/modelcopyjd0_zps827b198f.jpg). But I have _no idea_ what your model is. What is it? How does the local cosmos look to you, and how does this evidence seem to conform to it? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/33 "2014-04-28T14:36:31Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **Karol** , would you kindly present your model of the local cosmos? Like, if you were to ask me what model I adhered to, I could show you [that model](http://eyes.nasa.gov/index.html). If you were to ask a flat-earther what model they adhered to, they would probably show you something like [this](http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj135/Starman937/modelcopyjd0_zps827b198f.jpg). But I have _no idea_ what your model is. What is it? How does the local cosmos look to you, and how does this evidence seem to conform to it? People, including myself, have been asking him for this since day one, and have received either a resounding silence, or perhaps a link to a YouTube video or a pdf of scribbles of lines and circles. Best of luck, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/34 "2014-04-28T17:57:04Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **Karol** , would you kindly present your model of the local cosmos? Like, if you were to ask me what model I adhered to, I could show you [that model](http://eyes.nasa.gov/index.html). If you were to ask a flat-earther what model they adhered to, they would probably show you something like [this](http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj135/Starman937/modelcopyjd0_zps827b198f.jpg). But I have _no idea_ what your model is. What is it? How does the local cosmos look to you, and how does this evidence seem to conform to it? I think we were introduced to his model by **Amateur Barbarian** [over a year ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=678744). Don’t you remember the [Grid Ball Solar System](http://www.dgath.com/misc/grid_ball.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/35 "2014-04-28T18:09:53Z")
I looked up some information on the Hollow Earth “theory” a couple of weeks ago and near as I can figure this is the model. The universe is encased inside a hollow sphere the size of the Earth. We live on the inside wall of the sphere with the cosmos laid out above us. It takes an exponential amount of energy to climb, so much so that you can never get to the actual center of the sphere. As you climb the things you come to change size - so there’s something built into this theory that resembles relativity because of the need for space and time dilation. Relatively speaking the sun and moon aren’t very high at all physically. Light curves naturally in this theory - so when you look straight ahead you won’t see the Earth rising because the light curves along the surface. My questions I’ve had for Karol in other threads that he has refused to answer, but I will ask again: 1. What is the nature of gravity? Can the universe have multiple gravity wells? 2. Did man ever walk on the moon? Have we sent probes to Mars? 3. If both answers to 2 are “no” which I think is something you’ve implied, then who is it that is deceiving all of the people that work on those projects? Who runs things? 4. What is underground? If I dig a very deep hole, let’s say 10 million miles deep, where will I be? 5. How big do you think the universe is in terms of travelling from one side of the sphere to the other? If I fired a beam of light across the celestial sphere, how long would you expect it to take for the photons to get to the other side? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/36 "2014-04-28T18:34:38Z")
That seems a fairly succinct and complete summary, at least as far as I have been able to glean. The weird thing is: if light curves in this theory, so as to create the illusion of a horizon, why is **Karol** presenting us with photos where (it is claimed) you can things that should be over the horizon? If light curves, then it curves for eyes and cameras alike. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/37 "2014-04-30T14:32:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > That seems a fairly succinct and complete summary, at least as far as I have been able to glean. > > The weird thing is: if light curves in this theory, so as to create the illusion of a horizon, why is **Karol** presenting us with photos where (it is claimed) you can things that should be over the horizon? If light curves, then it curves for eyes and cameras alike. You got it all WRONG!!! The Earth is FLAT!!! Proof, there is a [society](http://www.tfes.org/) They have a [Forum](http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/) And most important, there is REAL proof, in form of Youtube Videos A documentary [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb-cxF26ev0) [A Video explanation here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZepTD5T72yg) Consider yourselves educated about the REAL Truth ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/38 "2014-05-01T07:23:11Z")
So… is the OP coming back to acknowledge and concede to the complete and sensible (although initially counter-intuitive) explanation provided by **eburacum45** in post #15? ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/39 "2014-05-02T16:59:59Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > So… is the OP coming back to acknowledge and concede to the complete and sensible (although initially counter-intuitive) explanation provided by **eburacum45** in post #15? Well, s/he/it was online today… but… didn’t bother coming back to this thread. My guess is: s/he/it is researching the Flat Earth theory (truth) now. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098/40 "2014-05-02T17:26:36Z")
M-O-O-N, that spells space-time continuum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-scheme-the-proper-explanation-of-why-the-upper-part-of-the-moon-is-illuminated/687098.md?page=3)