# Is this sentence grammatically correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 25, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963 "2009-11-25T22:01:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/21 "2009-11-28T14:22:54Z")
I guess you can compare grammar and usage from a 1798 poem to a 2006 book, but things have changed a bit over that time span. > [@Frylock](#): > > Those sentences at face value make perfect sense. It takes inferential work to understand why someone would think they _don’t_ make sense. They are grammatically incorrect with double negatives when only a single negative is intended. At _face value_ the first one literally means “I have money” but in context most of us know that this is a common ungrammatical usage to mean “I have no money.” We also might know the second means “Don’t go anywhere” if we are used to that ungrammatical usage (or dialect, depending on your school of thought). In the case of the OP’s quote most people have never seen such a usage, well at least I haven’t. I’m not a literary scholar but I do read a lot and I just didn’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/22 "2009-11-28T14:44:45Z")
I having nothing more to add except my thanks. I really do appreciate all the thought that’s gone into your answers. Much obliged! (Now that his novel sentence construction has been analysed, maybe I should start a thread on McCarthy’s use of vocabulary. Reading him makes me feel like English is my second language!) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/23 "2009-11-28T14:52:35Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I guess you can compare grammar and usage from a 1798 poem to a 2006 book, but things have changed a bit over that time span. And no one ever uses archaic grammar for connotive effect, either. Ever. > [@](#): > > They are grammatically incorrect with double negatives when only a single negative is intended. At _face value_ the first one literally means “I have money” but in context most of us know that this is a common ungrammatical usage to mean “I have no money.” We also might know the second means “Don’t go anywhere” if we are used to that ungrammatical usage (or dialect, depending on your school of thought). I guess I didn’t know what you mean by “face value.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/24 "2009-11-28T23:36:11Z")
**CookingWithGas** , the sentences you gave as examples have clear meanings but are grammatically incorrect. The sentence in the OP is grammatically correct. I agree with **Gary T** that the meaning is: “the snow fell and continued to fall,” but I like the way the original author said it better. The explanation that I gave was just an example of situation in which that sentence would make sense. You are not the only one who prefers the more common way of saying it. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/25 "2009-11-29T02:10:27Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > The sentence in the OP is grammatically correct. I’m not sure that anything in this thread establishes that it is correct and there are posts that take the opposite view with some explanation to back it up. I still can’t understand why it is correct to use “nor” in that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/26 "2009-11-29T02:35:14Z")
We all know that Catholic grade school nuns are the ultimate arbiters of proper grammar, and they would have taken points off for the OP sentence. The rules I learned would say the sentence is incorrect. But it turns out the nuns tried to teach me a lot of bullshit, and now that I’m an atheist it may be that the sentence is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/27 "2009-11-29T13:54:22Z")
Several more examples can be found [here](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1929). All of them are from before WWI, but at least we can see that the usage is part of some sensible and respectable version of English. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/28 "2009-11-29T15:29:00Z")
**Frylock** : Wow! Thank you, thank you! ---
**Author:** ![duncanmkz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@duncanmkz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duncanmkz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/29 "2009-11-29T16:00:05Z")
“The snow fell nor did it cease to fall.” It is grammatical, but it needs a comma after “fell”. It means - “the snow fell, and it did not cease falling.” ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/30 "2009-11-29T16:03:22Z")
I have seen this type of construction in a book published around 1890-1910, where it is repeated several times throughout - its a short historical guide book. ‘The Romance of Old Leeds’ A Mattison & W Meakin. > [@](#): > > The river was not considered by the old literary wanderers unworthy to rank with Yorkshire streams which are now more famous than the Aire… > > \> snip\< > > It was no uncommon occurrance, for instance, for the Mayor, in his corporate capacity, to await the arrival of a cargo of wheat and purchase it in order to prevent any cornering operations. > > \>snip\< > > The river was solidly frozen for a month, and during the whole of that time a rollicking old English fair was carried on, show booths were erected, and ox roasting on the ice formed no unimportant part of the carnival This book quotes heavily from early 18thC writings of various types, but only the second quotation from the book is actually of this period and the other two seem o have been written in a way to partly mimic the style - or at least give the whole book a coherence without jarring the reader from one period of written language to another. In other words its a late 19thC idea of what early 18thC writings were like but it is not done anything like as well as the earlier writings, it is, effectively, an attempt at rustication. I wonder if the rest of the book is written in in manner. I have looked it up on Wiki, and a quote from it suggests this is the case. One could imagine the reasons behind this manner of writing, it would take the story out of modern speech patterns and reinforce this as a differant time. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/31 "2009-11-29T16:11:16Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > I have seen this type of construction in a book published around 1890-1910, where it is repeated several times throughout - its a short historical guide book. > > ‘The Romance of Old Leeds’ A Mattison & W Meakin. > > This book quotes heavily from early 18thC writings of various types, but only the second quotation from the book is actually of this period and the other two seem o have been written in a way to partly mimic the style - or at least give the whole book a coherence without jarring the reader from one period of written language to another. None of the three quotes you gave contain the construction we’re talking about. None of them even include the word “nor”. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/32 "2009-11-29T22:12:37Z")
This thread is now being discussed at Language Log, a message board for linguists: [http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1929#more-1929](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1929#more-1929) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/33 "2009-11-29T23:52:52Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > This thread is now being discussed at Language Log, a message board for linguists: > > [Language Log » Ask Language Log: "Nor did it cease to fall"](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1929#more-1929) Thank you so much for posting that link. That is a really interesting discussion with very well-informed posts on both sides of the issue. I hereby retreat from my intransigent position that the line is flat out incorrect, but I do love the post in that thread by **Sid Smith**. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/34 "2009-11-30T02:05:27Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Thank you so much for posting that link. That is a really interesting discussion with very well-informed posts on both sides of the issue. **Sid Smith**. Er, that’s the same link that Frylock had posted eight hours earlier (and about which I exclaimed, Wow!") ---
**Author:** ![The\_Seventh\_Deadly\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6bbea6/32.png) [@The\_Seventh\_Deadly\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Seventh_Deadly_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/35 "2009-11-30T12:45:03Z")
> [@duncanmkz](#): > > “The snow fell nor did it cease to fall.” > > It is grammatical, but it needs a comma after “fell”. > > It means - “the snow fell, and it did not cease falling.” I agree with this 100%. The sentence looks assy not because it contains an unusual usage of “nor” (though it does), but because it’s missing the comma. When the comma is inserted, the sense of the archaic usage is awakened: “The snow fell, nor did it cease to fall.” This sounds highfalutin, likely as intended, but not jarring. The less-common sense of “nor,” in my opinion, is a red herring in our discussion-- one which I freely admit took me in as well, until **duncanmkz** struck the scales from my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/36 "2009-11-30T14:38:29Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Er, that’s the same link that Frylock had posted eight hours earlier (and about which I exclaimed, Wow!") I overlooked Frylock’s link because he referred merely to “examples,” nor did I need to see more examples. The link I clicked on was advertised as a discussion. Er. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/37 "2009-11-30T14:43:00Z")
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be snarky (although now, in retrospect, I see how the “er” may have been so construed). My _only_ point was to give credit to **Frylock** who, in addition to providing the link, may also have been the person who drew the thread to the attention of the good folks at ‘languagelog’ in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/38 "2009-11-30T21:07:22Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be snarky (although now, in retrospect, I see how the “er” may have been so construed). My _only_ point was to give credit to **Frylock** who, in addition to providing the link, may also have been the person who drew the thread to the attention of the good folks at ‘languagelog’ in the first place. Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be snarky either. Well, actually, I _was_ trying to be snarky, but I’m sorry I was snarky. Anyway, I give **Frylock** due credit for being first to bring the thread to light, but my explanation for not clicking on it stands. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/39 "2009-12-01T02:31:15Z")
Now, for any SAT/ACT students out there, both tests will nail you if you fail to put the “neither” in the sentence, even if the alternate usage seen here is quasi-legal. ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963/40 "2009-12-01T14:13:38Z")
I know there’s nothing technically grammatically wrong with it, but it just grates on me. In my head it sounds a little like nails on a chalkboard… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-sentence-grammatically-correct/518963.md?page=3)