# Is this stolen valor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874 "2014-08-19T04:46:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/21 "2014-08-19T20:08:46Z")
OK, I read the article and it doesn’t make sense to me. Born in 1956, enlists in 1973 (at age 17, possible with parental consent) but is facing 15 years in prison for drug trade. Jurisdiction issues results in the charges getting dropped and he gets back into the military (huh?!). In 1984 pulls a gun on a sleeping police officer but eventually finds Jesus via the LDS. The ribbons are… not correct… the CAB is most certainly worn above everything else. I’m going to study his ribbons and see if anything else is way off (in addition to what has been mentioned), it’s hard as it’s such a poor picture. But, it looks like he just made something up and threw it on. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/22 "2014-08-19T20:25:56Z")
I also notice that to the left of the badge folks are calling the CAB he’s wearing Army aviator or aircrew wings. Not inconceivable, but it’s another red flag. Enlisted can’t be aviators; you’ve got to be an officer or warrant officer. At least that was true when I was in 20 years ago; things may have changed. Enlisted can be aircrew. But there aren’t that many, and those that are don’t tend to carry M16/M4 and wear camo as opposed to flight gear. Although a guy who’s supposed been in the Army off and on for 41 years may have changed jobs a time or two. Color me skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/23 "2014-08-19T20:32:11Z")
> [@cmdrpiffle](#): > > He’s not holding a Squad Automatic Weapon in the photograph. He’s holding an M16/M4 variant with a possibly grenade launcher attached. I almost feel insulted. M16s have triangular front sight posts. The shrouded front sight post and the gas collar are obvious SAW characteristics. Not to mention the magazine sticking out of the side of the weapon system which is unique to that weapon. The large rear peep sight, as opposed to one integrated into a carrying handle like the M16, is also visibile. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/24 "2014-08-19T20:35:33Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I also notice that to the left of the badge folks are calling the CAB he’s wearing Army aviator or aircrew wings. Not inconceivable, but it’s another red flag. Not to mention the fact that the air crew/aviation badge is never worn below the ribbons either. Can anybody tell what he has _above_ his ribbons? I cannot make it out with any certainty. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/25 "2014-08-19T20:47:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > AFAIK, the US military still has what it calls “tenure limits”. There’s a maximum time in service that someone can have, increasing with an increase in rank. One may, of course, apply for an exception to that policy. That was my first thought as well; if this guy had been in the Army since 1973 by the time the 2003 Iraq War came around, he would have to have been some kind of very senior NCO, or he’d have fallen prey to the “out” part of the “up or out” military promotion procedures. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/26 "2014-08-19T21:12:11Z")
I did a google image search and the picture is a little bit clearer. It almost looks like a CIB above the ribbons. I was Navy, not Army, but I’m pretty sure you can’t have both. Also I think I see the National Defense Service ribbon at the top left of row 2, which is pretty high, but it’s difficult to tell for sure. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/27 "2014-08-19T21:16:49Z")
Is this the [same guy](http://media.nola.com/military_impact/photo/wounded-warrior-projectjpg-5349b94be3f14dc4.jpg)? His name is John Johnson, also, and I’d swear that bottom device is a Navy Surface Warfare Specialist device. On second thought, it doesn;t really look like him ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/28 "2014-08-19T21:23:57Z")
Okay, now I’m wondering if it is, because in the comments section of the Deseret News someone mentions working with him in New Orleans. Sorry for all the posts. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/29 "2014-08-19T22:01:45Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > Okay, now I’m wondering if it is, because in the comments section of the Deseret News someone mentions working with him in New Orleans. Working with him on a Mormon mission. I don’t think anyone doubts the guy is a real Mormon. He just isn’t a real soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/30 "2014-08-20T00:55:17Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > As far as his picture serving in Iraq, it is also suspect. If he joined the Army in 1973, he would have been well past retirement during the early years of Iraq. He is wearing three color desert camo and not the 6 color which means that was not Desert Storm, it was the GWOT. That means he would have had roughly 30 years of service. Even if you allow for some crazy-long service in the Reserve or something, a Soldier with that much time in would not be holding a Squad Automatic Weapon. The SAW is for much younger, lower ranking soldiers. I don’t have your knowledge of the military but weren’t some older reservists called up for support jobs? I guy I worked with was one of the first reservists activated in 1990. And we joked about it after he returned because he was in the Coast Guard Reserve. But he said that he hadn’t been surprised when he got activated. While he was in the Coast Guard, his specialty was supplies - essentially he set up warehouses. And when the United States was building up its military presence in Saudi Arabia, some of the first people that got sent in were people like him. They were the ones that had to set up new facilities to handle the flood of equipment and supplies that was coming in right behind them. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/31 "2014-08-20T01:56:27Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > Is this the [same guy](http://media.nola.com/military_impact/photo/wounded-warrior-projectjpg-5349b94be3f14dc4.jpg)? > > His name is John Johnson, also, and I’d swear that bottom device is a Navy Surface Warfare Specialist device. Is _that_ what they teach people out there in Wisconsin? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/32 "2014-08-20T11:35:44Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > On a 10 point scale, that picture is sitting at about a 9.2. I’m calling bullshit. This isn’t a simple case of getting something backwards or wearing something that is “technically wrong” but easy to screw up. There are a million ways to screw up a Class A uniform when applying awards and decorations. > However, the CAB isn’t one that I have ever seen in the wrong place. Ever. Maybe it is mistakenly worn with another Group 1 medal, or it is mistakenly worn with Group 4 medals above the ribbons (old rules) or some other simple mistake. Recently I saw someone from the USAMU in an article and his tabs were worn in the wrong place. Those are all believable mistakes. But wearing a CAB below the ribbons is not a mistake that anyone is going to make. Agreed. > [@cmdrpiffle](#): > > He’s not holding a Squad Automatic Weapon in the photograph. He’s holding an M16/M4 variant with a possibly grenade launcher attached. Already taken care of. You are wrong. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > I also notice that to the left of the badge folks are calling the CAB he’s wearing Army aviator or aircrew wings. Not inconceivable, but it’s another red flag. > > Enlisted can’t be aviators; you’ve got to be an officer or warrant officer. At least that was true when I was in 20 years ago; things may have changed. Enlisted can be aircrew. But there aren’t that many, and those that are don’t tend to carry M16/M4 and wear camo as opposed to flight gear. Although a guy who’s supposed been in the Army off and on for 41 years may have changed jobs a time or two. > > Color me skeptical. I have Aircrewman Wings earned for my first MOS but I’m now a 12B Engineer (after being a 19K). Of course I’m too damn old to be humping the SAW. That’s what privates are for. > [@August\_West](#): > > I did a google image search and the picture is a little bit clearer. It almost looks like a CIB above the ribbons. I was Navy, not Army, but I’m pretty sure you can’t have both. > > Also I think I see the National Defense Service ribbon at the top left of row 2, which is pretty high, but it’s difficult to tell for sure. You can _have_ both. But both can’t be worn at the same time. The CIB is only authorized for Infantry and Special Forces (11 and 18 series). It’s also only if you are in an Infantry or SF unit at the time of the action. So an 11B can get a CIB on one deployment when assigned to an infantry unit and then get awarded a CAB when assigned to a non-infantry unit and gets involved in a combat action. But there is not an infantryman on earth that would wear the CAB instead of the CIB. And you can’t wear both at the same time. But I can’t tell if that is a CIB from the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/33 "2014-08-20T11:41:07Z")
I think we should get [SGM Davis](http://guardianofvalor.com/fake-sgm-gets-called-marines-funeral/) on the case. He’ll find out the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/34 "2014-08-20T13:25:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Maybe more of a bias towards stories that are “former Black Panther now a Mormon.” Which is exactly what the article represents; that the individual was converted by Mormon missionaries going door-to-door. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/35 "2014-08-20T13:29:46Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Would stick out from across a crowded room. Thanks **Bear**! You were one of the people I hoped would look at it. > [@mhendo](#): > > First, the article is not “from” a self-proclaimed former Black Panther, now war hero; it is _about_ him. Johnson did not write the article. > > Second, nowhere in the [full Deseret News article](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865608147/Meet-a-former-Black-Panther-affiliate-inmate-Mormon.html) is John Johnson referred to as a “war hero,” either by the author of the article, or by Johnson himself. All it tells us about his military experience is that he enlisted in 1973, ended up in jail on drug charges, and then was reinstated after his release. One of the pictures accompanying the article also claims to be a picture of Johnson serving in Iraq. Johnson is the one claiming to have all of these fantastic experiences, which rather conveniently, are all unverifiable. All three photos, including the one with the medal in question, are supplied by Johnson. He also is quoted as saying, ironically, > [@hero](#): > > “I’m trying to be humble,” Johnson laughed near the end of our discussion, “but **I also want to tell the truth**. I’ve fought wars around the world during my military career. . ." My emphasis. We can quibble if he’s actually claiming to be a war hero or not, but he is a self-proclaimed Black Panther “associate,” says he was almost a murderer, a convicted felon who got off on a technicality and allowed to reenlist, and other equally improbable stories, none of which can be verified. The pictures he supplied are bogus, as **Bear\_Nenno** has pointed out, and you want to pick apart the question of he is claiming to be a “war hero” or not. Whatever. Let him sue me for libel, that will be an interesting deposition. > [@UDS](#): > > I gotta point out that what this largely tells us is that the _photograph_ is likely fake - as in, it’s not a photograph of a real solider wearing his real uniform. What’s its provenance? Could it be a stock photograph pulled up by a lazy editor to illustrate an article whose provenance is different? Nope. The credit for the photo is to Johnson himself. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Maybe more of a bias towards stories that are “former Black Panther now a Mormon.” Which is exactly what the article represents; that the individual was converted by Mormon missionaries going door-to-door. Yeah, the Deseret News is a Mormon-run newspaper pretty much for Mormons, and article is meant to be faith-promoting, as can be seen by the comments. > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > As far as his picture serving in Iraq, it is also suspect. If he joined the Army in 1973, he would have been well past retirement during the early years of Iraq. He is wearing three color desert camo and not the 6 color which means that was not Desert Storm, it was the GWOT. That means he would have had roughly 30 years of service. Even if you allow for some crazy-long service in the Reserve or something, a Soldier with that much time in would not be holding a Squad Automatic Weapon. The SAW is for much younger, lower ranking soldiers. Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. > [@](#): > > ETA: Of course… anything is possible through Jesus. Yeah. There is that. > [@Monty](#): > > What’s the point of saying “Mormon-run” Deseret News? (I ask already knowing the answer because of who the OP is.) What’s the point of this question? (I ask already knowing the answer because of who the poster is.) As others have pointed out, this was a passing mention of the possibility of bias about a church-run newspaper having a faith-promoting story about one of the members of its faith. Were this story to run in a newspaper run by any other religion in similar circumstances, I have complete faith (heh, heh) that others would also find it relevant. Ironically, your objections, as an active Mormon, most likely did more than my two-word description to call attention to the Mormon aspect of the story, one which I as a former Mormon, deliberately downplayed. It could have been quite easy for me to have sensationalized it, such as making reference to [Paul H. Dunn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_H._Dunn#Scandal) and his war stories. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/36 "2014-08-20T13:41:22Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Ironically, your objections, as an active Mormon, most likely did more than my two-word description to call attention to the Mormon aspect of the story, one which I as a former Mormon, deliberately downplayed. It could have been quite easy for me to have sensationalized it, such as making reference to [Paul H. Dunn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_H._Dunn#Scandal) and his war stories. Do you ever listen to yourself? ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/37 "2014-08-20T14:41:42Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Working with him on a Mormon mission. I don’t think anyone doubts the guy is a real Mormon. He just isn’t a real soldier. Right, I get that. I’m just wondering if the John Johnson in the pic I linked is the same guy, because he appears to have a CAB, AC wings, and a Navy ESWS on his uniform, along with 10th Mountain XVIII Airborne patches. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/38 "2014-08-20T14:42:55Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Is _that_ what they teach people out there in Wisconsin? 😃 This guy doesn’t work in a lumber mill, **Derleth**. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/39 "2014-08-20T16:00:24Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I think we should get [SGM Davis](http://guardianofvalor.com/fake-sgm-gets-called-marines-funeral/) on the case. He’ll find out the truth. Good idea. I sent in a report. ---
**Author:** ![cmdrpiffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b4bc9f/32.png) [@cmdrpiffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmdrpiffle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/40 "2014-08-20T16:27:11Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I almost feel insulted. > M16s have triangular front sight posts. The shrouded front sight post and the gas collar are obvious SAW characteristics. Not to mention the magazine sticking out of the side of the weapon system which is unique to that weapon. The large rear peep sight, as opposed to one integrated into a carrying handle like the M16, is also visibile. Upon further review… I need to put down the crack pipe. You’re correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874.md?page=3)