# Is this stolen valor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874 "2014-08-19T04:46:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/61 "2014-08-26T15:21:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there any new news on this particular case? The two sites that have been named in this thread are unfortunately inundated with cases from all over the country. In particular Guardians of Valor says they get hundreds of emails and messages a day. They try to prioritize cases based on if there appears to be any financial fraud. And then they have to wait on FOIA requests and other such avenues. I like that site in particular because they are very meticulous and make sure they never accuse anyone in error. So these things take time. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/62 "2014-08-26T15:24:58Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > This, I disagree with completely, especially when those jackasses are looking to profit somehow, mostly with attention, are much more rarely money. Heads-up for you: mere attention is not “profit.” If they are looking to gain money or some other tangible consideration by passing themselves off as military (or ex-military), then they can probably be charged, in most cases, under fraud statutes. If they try to claim benefits; if they try to claim military discounts; if they try to get people to donate to them, or to some bogus charity, under the guise of fake military service, then there’s a good chance they’ve committed some sort of fraud. But if all they’re doing is attention-seeking, it’s not the same thing. It’s like some other asshole who claims to be a doctor, or a venture capitalist, or something, to get women to like him. Makes him a douchebag, but i can’t get too worked up about it. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > But, this is not an apt comparison. As **Loach** argues, by falsely claiming bravery which should rightfully belong to others, it places doubts when we hear stories of those who do actually face real dangers. Meh. I feel no such doubts, as a general principle. The number of frauds are so small, compared to the thousands who actually served, that it barely makes a blip on the radar. As i noted earlier in the thread, over 100,000 Americans have been awarded the Combat Action Badge; a couple of fakes doesn’t turn me into a raging skeptic every time i meet someone who claims to have served in Iraq or Afghanistan. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The reason that it’s called “stolen valor” is that those jackasses who claim it, are thieves. The are seeking some sort of profit, usually attention, and are peddling tales of bravery which others earned, often at great sacrifice, and which they paid for in blood, sweat, tears and nightmares. Spare me the histrionics. If all they get is a bit of attention, i simply can’t get worked up about it. And if they actually defraud people using claims of military service, then i am completely fine with them being prosecuted under the appropriate laws. And if they get caught faking military service, for gain or just for attention, i’m happy to declare that they are assholes and losers. But i’m not going to run around venting outrage just so everyone can see how much of a heroic defender of the troops i am. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It is despicable and loathsome. What is particularly egregious here is that a religion would cash in on the fictitious claims in order to capitalize on the emotions of the readers and to utilize that in an attempt to persuade others of that religion’s “truths.” I have no barrow to push for the LDS Church. I’m an atheist myself, and i’ve been outspoken against plenty of Church actions, including their massive dollar-dumping in California to sway the vote on Proposition 8 in 2008. And in this case, it does seem that removing the one image and not addressing the broader concerns about Johnson constitutes pretty bad journalistic ethics and practice. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/63 "2014-08-26T15:37:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I feel no such doubts, as a general principle. The number of frauds are so small, compared to the thousands who actually served, that it barely makes a blip on the radar. As i noted earlier in the thread, over 100,000 Americans have been awarded the Combat Action Badge; a couple of fakes doesn’t turn me into a raging skeptic every time i meet someone who claims to have served in Iraq or Afghanistan. Unfortunately it’s a big fucking blip. And seemingly getting bigger. To quote Don Shipley: > [@](#): > > When I began exposing Fake Navy SEALs a few years ago I was verifying 2-3 SEAL Imposters a week. As word spread I began checking 2-3 Phony Navy SEALs a day. Today, I currently verify 20-30 Fraudulent SEAL claims each and every single day and often more. When Navy SEALs execute another daring raid like the Somalia Pirates or the Bin Laden raid, the requests to verify go through the roof and I struggle to get through the email, Facebook, YouTube, and phone calls that easily goes over 50 SEAL verifications. That’s just one guy dealing with one small portion of the military. Watching him rip apart a phony SEAL is a thing of beauty. If anyone has a phony SEAL claim to check he is the one to do it. The SEALs have their own databases that they can check. He now charges a small fee due to the amount of time he has to spend doing it. He donates all the money. The fee is to keep his workload down and reduce the amount of requests to only the important ones. That’s how many are out there. It’s not just an American thing. The Brits call them Walts. > [@mhendo](#): > > Spare me the histrionics. If all they get is a bit of attention, i simply can’t get worked up about it. And if they actually defraud people using claims of military service, then i am completely fine with them being prosecuted under the appropriate laws. > > And if they get caught, i’m happy to declare that they are assholes and losers. But i’m not going to run around venting outrage just so everyone can see how much of a heroic defender of the troops i am. And no one is forcing you to care, read these threads or even open them. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/64 "2014-08-27T01:40:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If they are looking to gain money or some other tangible consideration by passing themselves off as military (or ex-military), then they can probably be charged, in most cases, under fraud statutes. If they try to claim benefits; if they try to claim military discounts; if they **try to get people to donate to them, or to some bogus charity** , under the guise of fake military service, then there’s a good chance they’ve committed some sort of fraud. emphasis mine. As this is GQ and not GD, I’ll try to frame my response within the rules of this forum. There are many who feel that the LDS church is a “bogus” organization. Certainly my feelings are well known among those here who read treads on Mormonism. I’ll leave it at that. This is exactly the purpose of this man’s story and the reason why it was written up in the Mormon Church owned newspaper and then reprinted on the Mormon Church website. This man may not be attempting to get cash himself, but he and the church are using a faked story as a faith promoting story in order to convert people to that organization and to retain the faith of the members, who pay 10% of their income as tithing. Technically, it may not plastered on a “Contribute to the Lord!” glossy brochure, but the effect is similar. Certainly, churches and bogus charities use false stories to solicit money. That’s not a news flash. However, this is a case where they are promoting a fake veteran, which is where is where it is a concern to many. Interestingly, this is a mere blip, where the most famous Mormon who clearly profited from his stolen valor is Paul Dunn, formerly one of the top leaders in the church. His fabricated stories of miraculous divine intervention directly saving him from machine gun bullets which tore off his belt and [split his helmet](http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/paulhdunn.htm). > [@](#): > > Some of the stories Dunn told: > > 1. “The sole survivor among 11 infantrymen in a 100-yard race against death, during which one burst of machine-gun fire ripped his right boot off, another tore off his ammunition and canteen belt and yet another split his helmet in half - all without wounding him.” > > 2. “[Dunn kept] a Japanese prisoner from being butchered by GIs bent on revenge for the torture slayings of American soldiers.” > > 3. “[Wrestled] a dynamite pack off a child kamikaze infiltrator, saving himself and the child.” > > 4. “Survived being run over by an enemy tank, while others were crushed.” This is from a blog made shortly after the Manti Te’o story came out > [@](#): > > Famous Mormon Fictionalizes Life Stories > > This is a story about a man named Paul H. Dunn. > > Paul H. Dunn was a high-ranking leader in the LDS Church during the 1970s and 1980s. He gave public talks, as LDS Church leaders are expected to do, and wrote over fifty books. > > In a couple of those books, Dunn described how he had played baseball for the St. Louis Cardinals. That he’d pitched to Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams and rubbed elbows with Stan Musial. > > He also told stories about his service in World War II. He said that he was one of six soldiers out of his battalion of 1,000 to have survived the war. He said a buddy named Harold Lester Brown had died in his arms on Okinawa—prayers on his lips—and that Dunn himself had helped bury the body. > > Stories like these made Paul H. Dunn one of the best-loved motivational speakers in the world of Mormonism. > > Until it was discovered that many of the stories were not true. > > Dunn had never played for the Cardinals. Harold Lester Brown was alive in Missouri. And lots of men from the Second Battalion made it home alive. > > (. . .) > > But was anyone really that upset with Paul H. Dunn to begin with? > > After all, in Mormonism, we don’t have paid priests or theologians. Every sermon, every Sunday School lesson, every evening devotional: we give it ourselves, us lay people. From the time we are four years old—no joke—we stand behind podiums and we tell stories we pull out of our guts. > > We tell them hard, and we hope they’ll work. We hope they’ll bring people to tears, to help them feel the Spirit. Because people are so hungry for stories. People need to feel something that lifts them a little. And not everyone can deliver. If you can, everyone is looking to you. If you can, you must. > > (. . .) > > It’s a story about the kinds of stories we regular people demand, hunger for, and fixate on: the unstoppable star athlete, the faithful war buddy, the beautiful tragic dead girl. This is part of the Mormon culture. To tell faith promoting stories demonstrating the active divine intervention of God in our lives. I grew up in the era where Paul Dunn was king. His speaker tapes and books sold well. The teacher in my missionary prep class used to play Dunn’s tapes and told us to buy some as useful tools for converting people to Mormonism, as it invoked powerful emotional responses which missionaries explained was the spirit of God testifying to the investigator the truth of the Mormon church. There simply is no doubt that Dunn is guilty of stolen valor. Not in the strict legal sense, perhaps, but certainly by how veterans would see it. After Dunn was exposed, he sort of wiggles around for a while before giving a half-assed apology. The Mormon Church retired him but continued to sell his books and tapes through the church owned bookstore. Here, again, we have a(n apparently popular) Mormon leader saying he is a veteran. Here, again, are some fantastic claims of divine intervention. The exact details differ. It looks like this guy hasn’t made any speaker tapes or books, but his story is being utilized by the Mormon Church for the same purpose. The stolen valor here is from the man and his church, which as I noted has not pulled his picture from their site. You yourself don’t get upset by that. Fine. Whatever. We don’t all get upset [about same things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bGVT4-1DBU). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/65 "2014-08-27T03:57:26Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > … > You yourself don’t get upset by that. Fine. Whatever. We don’t all get upset [about same things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bGVT4-1DBU). Jules: Man, I just been sitting here thinking. Vincent: About what? Jules: About the miracle we just witnessed. Vincent: The miracle you witnessed. I witnessed a freak occurrence. Jules: What is a miracle, Vincent? Vincent: An act of God. Jules: And what’s an act of God? Vincent: When God makes the impossible possible. But this morning, I don’t think it qualifies. Jules: Hey, Vincent, don’t you see? That shit don’t matter. You’re judging this shit the wrong way. I mean, it could be that God stopped the bullets, or He changed Coke to Pepsi, He found my fucking car keys. You don’t judge shit like this based on merit. Now, whether or not what we experienced was an “according to Hoyle” miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874/66 "2014-08-27T04:58:40Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved. [I Can See!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKtjBqJ4NxA) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-stolen-valor/695874.md?page=3)