# Is this the beginning of the end? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060 "2021-07-22T15:36:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/223 "2021-07-28T16:39:36Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It seems to me it makes more sense to add Mr. or Ms. instead of pronouns, if there is room for confusion. While it’s not a perfect solution that’s what I did for my profile here. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/224 "2021-07-28T16:40:46Z")
Profiles and v-cards I think it’s fine to put in he/him she/her or whatever. Put your favorite color even. I haven’t seen pronouns in emails, like in the signature. ETA: I want to add that I’ve reviewed hundreds of employee applications in the past couple months, and exactly zero of them included pronouns. If you are seeing a shift it may be regional? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/225 "2021-07-28T16:49:23Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > 20 years ago or so, I went to a meeting at my local very hippy, anti-hierarchical, progressive co-op market. I had very liberal politics but was a pretty sheltered, conservative, tentative person personality-wise. In other words, if I had gone home and taken an online quiz about how people should be treated, I would have endorsed very progressive, equal rights for all, very tolerant positions. At the beginning of the meeting, they asked everyone new “how do you identify?” And I said, “_what_?” And they said how do you identify, and then other new people identified how they identified. I became a little uncomfortable and defensive and like gestured at my face and body and said with a sort of ironic shake of my head “uh, I’m Jimmy, just like, straight cis man?” In other words, I responded like the answer to the question was obvious and there was no need to ask. > > Nobody accused me of being bigoted or transphobic or a monster because of that response, so it took me a long time to realize that it was a bigoted answer. It was definitely not the _most_ bigoted thing any of them had heard. But I might as well have told them all “I think trans people are weird,” because I made it clear that I did; they just chose to be cool about it. There was literally no reason, other than thinking that trans-ness wasn’t worthy of being elevated to being “equivalent” to my own gender identity, for me to not straightforwardly answer the question. _Oh, I’m Jimmy, I’m a cis man, he/him is good; nice to meet you. My answer might have been something different, and you wouldn’t have known that, which is why you asked, so I’m telling you._ > > **One piece of that experience was that they didn’t call me an asshole.** I will certainly grant that I felt better about the situation because they didn’t. If we set that aside and just look at what I did, though, do you disagree with me that my response was based in bigotry? I’m not sure how many people in West Philly at the time were trans, or what you would call a “tiny, tiny minority,” but there were certainly trans people present in the room at the time. How very resilient of them. Was that what you meant by society “losing its resilience,” **Martini\_Enfield**? That if we don’t keep getting opportunities to practice not calling out bigoted responses on a regular basis, we’ll lose the ability? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/226 "2021-07-28T17:03:00Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Saying that society needs to ask your personal permission in order to change norms is, literally, not a “different opinion”. He is saying the norms are on his side (I think this is the core disagreement) and he doesn’t appreciate being in a situation where he doesn’t know the rules. If the norms aren’t on his side (if it is normal to ask/look for pronouns instead of assuming) he doesn’t deserve notice, because he is expected to know the norms of society. If the norms are on his side - meaning to assume a person is gender-conforming - it is reasonable to ask for notice from each person or situation where he is supposed to ask before assuming. This has nothing to do with the good of society or individuals in it, it’s entirely about knowing what is the rule and what is the exception, as a matter of mental heuristics. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/227 "2021-07-28T17:06:26Z")
You do not speak for those people, my man. You and them are not a “we.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/228 "2021-07-28T17:16:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You do not speak for those peopIe, my man. You and them are not a “we.” I’m going to have to ask for clarification (so I can know what exactly I myself need to clarify). Did you interpret my “we” as inserting myself into the group in your anecdote? That was not my intention. My “we” was about inserting myself into the group known as “society” (about whose resilience **Martini\_Enfield** expressed so much concern). Please put any ambiguity in my post down to clumsy writing on my part, and accept my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/229 "2021-07-28T17:27:47Z")
Seems to me the abusive name-calling and hostility directed at Martini here (Yes, I understand we’re in the Pit) is over the top. Not because I agree with him entirely on this issue (we’ve disagreed cordially off-line) but because he’s been a good citizen on the SDMB for quite a long time. When someone is often (or even only sometimes) a reliable ally on many issues, I think the decent (and progressive) stance to take towards him is to try to correct him patiently if firmly. If he were an across-the-board Nazi and general asshole, okay–I can see letting some spittle fly. But he’s not. He’s not even close. So if you’d like my advice, or even if you’d prefer me to jam my advice up my royal Irish arse, I’d recommend that you ease up on the level of animosity, while maintaining your firm positions. I simply think that would go better all around, for him as well as for you. Some of you (not naming any names now) are coming across as self-righteous bullies. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/230 "2021-07-28T17:48:06Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > If he were an across-the-board Nazi and general asshole, okay–I can see letting some spittle fly. But he’s not. He’s not even close. Woah, there, not so fast. Yes, he’s not a literal Nazi (I assume you mean modern RW Fascist there, not a WWII-era Nazi). But he’s a fervent pro-imperialist and neocolonialist, which are _just as bad_ in my book. Yes, I said “just as bad”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/231 "2021-07-28T18:00:44Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Seems to me the abusive name-calling and hostility directed at Martini here (Yes, I understand we’re in the Pit) is over the top It seems to me that the level of “name-calling and abuse” (if you can even call it that) directed at Martini is entirely proportional to the level of name-calling and abuse he directed at trans people. The fact that there is so much hand wringing and gnashing of teeth over the alleged “abuse” directed at him is probably why so many trans posters have left the board. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/232 "2021-07-28T18:06:01Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Seems to me the abusive name-calling and hostility directed at Martini here (Yes, I understand we’re in the Pit) is over the top. Did you miss this: > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > They are “weird” or “other”, though. They’re a tiny, _tiny_ minority of the overall population. The “weird” human beings he is disrespecting are posters here, their friends, children, spouses. I think people are going easy on him. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/233 "2021-07-28T18:20:34Z")
It’s a Board dedicated to finding a consensual reality. When a member decides he is going to ignore a growing social consensus on nomenclature literally because he, by his own words, wasn’t personally consulted as to whether the specified group mattered to _him_… well, fighting ignorance is what we do. But, yes, to your point, Martini’s position is not an uncommon position and should be recognized as such, as it is supported by many powerful people. Donald Trump. Newt Gingrich. Ben Shapiro. Ted Cruz. Mitch McConnell. Candace Owens. Devin Nunes. Jim Jordan. Matt Gaetz. Charlie Kirk. Josh Hawley. Brett Kavanaugh. All of these bright lights of Reason being illustrious names in the fight against “wokeness”, that horrible state where one is held accountable for past actions. All powerful voices of the New Right, all in agreement with Martini. And if those people above are whom he wishes to publicly associate his _values_ with, well, that’s good to know as well. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/234 "2021-07-28T18:41:34Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Did you miss this: > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > They are “weird” or “other”, though. They’re a tiny, _tiny_ minority of the overall population. > > The “weird” human beings he is disrespecting are posters here, their friends, children, spouses. If I were a trans person (I do not have that honor) I think I’d look at “weird” as merely descriptive. Maybe I’d think “I suppose many people seem ‘weird’ to some folks. Maybe Martini would seem ‘weird’ to me” and not "String him up!!!’ It just seems over the top to me. The other sentence seems purely descriptive. Are you going to argue that more than 1% of the population is trans? If not, then at least one “tiny” seems accurate, objectively speaking. Of course, utterly disregarding the rights of the tiniest number of people is wrong, but it seems to me you’re going far out of your way to find things to take grievous offense at. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/235 "2021-07-28T18:45:49Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > If I were a trans person (I do not have that honor) I think I’d look at “weird” as merely descriptive. Maybe I’d think “I suppose many people seem ‘weird’ to some folks. Maybe Martini would seem ‘weird’ to me” and not "String him up!!!’ It just seems over the top to me. That’s a very easy thing to say when you aren’t the one who society considers “weird”, when you aren’t reminded of how “weird” society considers you on a daily basis, and when you aren’t told that your rights don’t deserve to be protected by society because of how “weird” you are (I know YOU didn’t say that, but others certainly have, and Martini implied it). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/236 "2021-07-28T18:50:21Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Maybe Martini would seem ‘weird’ to me” and not "String him up!!!’ It just seems over the top to me. “String him up!!!” would be an over the top description of the criticism he received over complaining that society had changed without personally consulting him. He claims that he has no reason to acknowledge their rights or existence because they are “weird” and “other”. There just aren’t enough of them to matter to him. > [@Roger\_That](#): > > Of course, utterly disregarding the rights of the tiniest number of people is wrong But that’s precisely what he is doing, and exactly his defense as to why. > [@Roger\_That](#): > > but it seems to me you’re going far out of your way to find things to take grievous offense at. It seems to me that you are are assuming “grievous offense” at the slightest hint of criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/237 "2021-07-28T20:32:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@Roger\_That](#): > > > > Of course, utterly disregarding the rights of the tiniest number of people is wrong > > But that’s precisely what he is doing, and exactly his defense as to why. Yes, for those who who refuse to read my admittedly unclear English, that’s what I’m saying. I agree that he’s wrong here, and I’m asking people to counsel him on where he’s gone wrong and what he might do to set himself right. I don’t think calling him names and otherizing him is the way to go. It does, however, seem to make you feel better about yourselves to do so, so there’s that. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s a very easy thing to say Is it? It’s often hard to realize that the understanding one has, has evaded others for what might seem like an unreasonably long time. In such cases, again, it’s probably better to think back to oneself in a less enlightened time, and to try to remember what changed one’s mind. In a very few cases, personally, it was being informed that I was an asshole that turned the trick. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It seems to me that you are are assuming “grievous offense” at the slightest hint of criticism. This seems weak to me, Sorry. Try substituting a less incendiary term for “grievous offense” and my point still holds without the weak snark. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/238 "2021-07-28T20:34:38Z")
Y’all stop being so mean to Ms @Martini_Enfield! I’m quite certain that she’s a very nice woman off-board! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/239 "2021-07-28T20:36:21Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > That’s a very easy thing to say > > Is it? It’s often hard to realize that the understanding one has, has evaded others for what might seem like an unreasonably long time. In such cases, again, it’s probably better to think back to oneself in a less enlightened time, and to try to remember what changed one’s mind. In a very few cases, personally, it was being informed that I was an asshole that turned the trick. It was absolutely having it pointed out to me that I was being homophobic that got me to pull my head out of my ass. Same with Trans issues. Actually, on these very boards, for the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/240 "2021-07-28T20:38:44Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Yes, for those who who refuse to read my admittedly unclear English, that’s what I’m saying. I agree that he’s wrong here, and I’m asking people to counsel him on where he’s gone wrong and what he might do to set himself right. I don’t think calling him names and otherizing him is the way to go. It does, however, seem to make you feel better about yourselves to do so, so there’s that. See, here’s the thing, when I tried to have a very calm conversation, I got this: > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I had a response partly typed out for this, but then @Miller - a mod, no less - came in and called me an asshole, so it’s pretty clear I’m wasting my time explaining my viewpoint because no-one genuinely wants to hear it, or if they do, it’s so they can call me an asshole for having it. He does not appear interested in the calm, civil conversation. I suspect it’s because he realizes he’s being kind of dickish, and being defensive and martyricious is a lot easier than asking oneself the question, “Hey, am I the asshole in this scenario?” ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/241 "2021-07-28T20:39:45Z")
I’m finding this part of the thread a little funny, and instructive, since normally I’m the pretty intolerant one advocating for the shaming and abuse of those I find racist, sexist, xenophobic, and I DO feel pretty good about myself when I’m aiming my poison pen in their directions. It’s jolly fun!! In the present case, I happen to know Martini pretty well, and he’s been helpful and cordial and generous to me personally, so I’m taking up the tack of others in dealing with the likes of him. Very instructive, as I say. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/242 "2021-07-28T20:42:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I suspect it’s because he realizes he’s being kind of dickish, and being defensive and martyricious is a lot easier than asking oneself the question, “Hey, am I the asshole in this scenario?” So when someone is maybe beginning to question his position, and his defensive posture, you figure “AH HA!! NOW is the moment to jump on him with both feet!!”? I think that’s a perfect teachable moment, if you go about it properly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=13)