# Is this the beginning of the end? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060 "2021-07-22T15:36:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/243 "2021-07-28T20:48:20Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > So when someone is maybe beginning to question his position, and his defensive posture, you figure “AH HA!! NOW is the moment to jump on him with both feet!!”? I most certainly don’t. I don’t see that he’s beginning to question his position, that’s what I said. When someone is doing this defensive martyr act, it’s best to call it what it is, not to coddle them. You keep using violent imagery, like lynching and stomping. That’s an inappropriate description of verbal criticism, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/244 "2021-07-28T20:50:04Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > So when someone is maybe beginning to question his position, and his defensive posture, you figure “AH HA!! NOW is the moment to jump on him with both feet!!”? I think that’s a perfect teachable moment, if you go about it properly Honestly? I’m not buying it. If you’re rationally examining an issue, trying to decide what the right way to treat a minority group, and someone walks by and calls you an “asshole” and that’s enough to make you reconsider, you probably weren’t actually having a rational examination of your own biases in the first place. If you’ve got a store, and you’re deciding whether you will or won’t serve black people at your store, and as you’re thinking about it a black guy walks by and calls you an asshole - if that’s enough to make you say “you know what? Maybe I WILL be a racist”, that doesn’t say very good things about you. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/245 "2021-07-28T20:50:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > (My apologies for the shitty link–I really can’t figure out how to just link an image like a normal person, and it makes me feel like an idiot, but not as much of a fool as a person who gets all self-righteous about not including their pronouns) 1. Right-click the image 2. Press “Open image in new tab” 3. Copy and post the link in the new tab. Works 9 times out of 10. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/246 "2021-07-28T20:50:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You keep using violent imagery, like lynching and stomping “Jumping” is not “stomping.” Seems to me you might look in the mirror as to who is ratcheting up the imagery. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/247 "2021-07-28T20:51:25Z")
Oh for fuck’s sake. If you jump on someone with both feet, you’re stomping on them. Don’t be absurd. Your friendship to Martini is commendable, but it’s clouding your judgment here. Step back maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/248 "2021-07-28T20:54:04Z")
OK. Let it be known, though, that you’ve been shown that you had a teachable moment here, maybe, and instead of taking it you counseled me to walk away and shut my mouth, I’ve said all I have to say. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/249 "2021-07-28T20:56:16Z")
For fuck’s sake, nobody told you to shut your mouth. He told you to “step back” because of your friendship with the person we are discussing, as in look at the situation as if it didn’t involve your friend. You know, look at it from another perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/250 "2021-07-28T20:57:11Z")
I am curious how you guys are holding up, all nailed to the cross up there. There are a whole lot of you there now, is there enough room? We could have put up multiple crosses you know. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/251 "2021-07-28T20:57:12Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > OK. Let it be known, though, that you’ve been shown that you had a teachable moment here, maybe, and instead of taking it you counseled me to walk away and shut my mouth, I could maybe teach you not to put on the martyr costume, but you’ve failed to convince me you’re teachable in this context. You’re not even willing to admit that your judgment is clouded, how’m I supposed to teach you anything? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/252 "2021-07-28T21:00:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For fuck’s sake, nobody told you to shut your mouth. He told you to “step back” because of your friendship with the person we are discussing, as in look at the situation as if it didn’t involve your friend. You know, look at it from another perspective. Honestly, if someone were attacking my friend, and I was absolutely sure my friend was in the wrong, I’d just walk away from the whole conversation. Given the choice between arguing against my own beliefs, or ganging up on a buddy, I’d choose neither. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/253 "2021-07-28T21:03:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Honestly, if someone were attacking my friend, and I was absolutely sure my friend was in the wrong, I’d just walk away from the whole conversation. Given the choice between arguing against my own beliefs, or ganging up on a buddy, I’d choose neither That’s fair, and always a respectable option, I think ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/254 "2021-07-28T21:04:03Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > In the present case, I happen to know Martini pretty well, and he’s been helpful and cordial and generous to me personally Aah, the “nice guy” defence, haven’t seen that for … ooh, [hours](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-of-any-good-places-to-post-controversial-topics-especially-for-anti-pit-people/947179/124) now. You’re saying “Sure, the guy thinks Blacks can’t govern themselves - is unabashedly _proud_ of holding that view, in fact - but that doesn’t affect _me_, so he’s just great by me” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/255 "2021-07-28T21:05:49Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > “Jumping” is not “stomping.” Seems to me you might look in the mirror as to who is ratcheting up the imagery. This is just disingenuous fuckery. Why the fuck should it be coddled? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/256 "2021-07-28T21:23:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh for fuck’s sake. If you jump on someone with both feet, you’re stomping on them. My decades of Mario game experience going back to the 80s agrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/257 "2021-07-28T21:34:47Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > If I were a trans person (I do not have that honor) I think I’d look at “weird” as merely descriptive. Oh no. No, no. It’s one thing to be weird if you tap dance during staff meetings. It’s something else entirely to be considered weird due to your gender. It’s a de-humanizing descriptor. Please don’t use it or encourage it. > [@Babale](#): > > There are a whole lot of you there now, is there enough room? We could have put up multiple crosses you know. 🎵 _Always look on the bright side of life_ 🎵 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/258 "2021-07-28T21:41:08Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > Oh for fuck’s sake. If you jump on someone with both feet, you’re stomping on them. > > My decades of Mario game experience going back to the 80s agrees with you. Hmm, but does Mario use both feet? He’s always got his legs spread out when he jumps in the old games. [![](https://i0.wp.com/files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/mario_gomba_jump_render4.gif) ](https://i0.wp.com/files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/mario_gomba_jump_render4.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/259 "2021-07-28T21:48:36Z")
Thanks, I think you just broke Super Mario Brothers for me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/260 "2021-07-28T22:54:02Z")
That is NOT STOMPING! ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/261 "2021-07-28T23:29:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He does not appear interested in the calm, civil conversation. I suspect it’s because he realizes he’s being kind of dickish, and being defensive and martyricious is a lot easier than asking oneself the question, “Hey, am I the asshole in this scenario?” I’m always interested in calm, civil conversation. What I’m not interested in is people telling me “I make the boards worse by my presence” or just using me personally as a verbal punching bag/flex exercise. Seriously, elsewhere on the boards there have been many threads about “How much longer has the SDMB got?” and “Why aren’t we attracting new members?” and “What happened to all the people with different viewpoints?” - and then you’ve got this thread, where people appear to be _revelling_ in telling me, personally that they hate me, that I’m an awful person/asshole/likes pineapple on his pizza. There’s “You’re wrong and I disagree with you on this”, and there’s “I hate you, personally and specifically for not thinking the same way I do”. A number of the comments in this thread directed at me are very much the latter. Nothing ‘disagreeable’ I have said is aimed at a specific member of this board. I haven’t said “Fuck you, **FictitiousPoster#4** , you personally are awful and I hate you because of who you are” I said I don’t think cisgender people should proactively include pronouns in their e-mail signatures or social media profiles, and somehow that turned into me being “An abuser”. > [@kayaker](#): > > If you were to meet someone, talk to them, maybe become friends with them, then discover they are a member of this “weird or other” group, would you drop them like a hot potato? Not at all. As I’ve said before (not that anyone’s listening), my issue isn’t with transgender people or their existence, it’s with the social changes that are being pushed by a small group of people to benefit and even smaller group of people, and the I don’t hate transgender people. I don’t intentionally misgender transgender people. They, like you and me, are people going about their lives. They get the same treatment and basic courtesy I extend to everyone else. My issue is people wanting me to do ‘extra’ stuff. Samuel deciding to become Samantha doesn’t affect or cause any issues me - if she is happy now, that’s great and I’m happy for them. Several people I work with saying “You have to list your pronouns now to make Samantha feel even more included than she already is” and then getting shitty at me when I say “No thanks” _does_ affect me, especially when the eventual outcome is, well, the sort of stuff that’s being directed at me in this thread. What I have a problem with is the tiresomely woke progressive types who are all “Let’s think up newer and more dogmatic ways to change fundamental stuff about society and then punish anyone who isn’t immediately and 100% on board with it.” And despite what people looking to be offended on other’s behalf might think, I was (and am) using “weird” purely in a descriptive sense. _I’m_ weird. I haven’t even had breakfast yet and one of my friends has said I’m weird. It’s not an insult (and wasn’t intended to be when I used it before), it’s a descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/262 "2021-07-28T23:34:43Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > "I hate you, personally and specifically for not thinking the same way I do”. Literally no one said this. Maybe it’s a generational thing, but when Miller called you an “asshole”, I didn’t interpret that as some deep-seated hatred of your very being. “Asshole” just isn’t that kind of insult, not to me at least. It’s basically a slightly harsher way of calling you “inconsiderate”. I really don’t think anyone feels this way, and I’m baffled that that’s the takeaway you’d have from what any of us said. For what it’s worth, if the message you got from any of my posts was “I hate you personally”, I apologize, because that wasn’t my intent. I do think you’re very wrong about transgender people and how our society deals with them, but that doesn’t mean I hate you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=14)