# Is this the beginning of the end? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060 "2021-07-22T15:36:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/263 "2021-07-28T23:42:25Z")
I was just using “asshole” in the descriptive sense. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/264 "2021-07-28T23:46:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Nothing ‘disagreeable’ I have said is aimed at a specific member of this board. Are you aware that when you talk about “the tiresomely woke progressive types” and “people looking to be offended on other’s behalf” and similar phrases, everyone knows who you’re talking about, and that it’s a disagreeable thing you’re saying that’s pretty clearly aimed at specific members of this board? If you weren’t aware of that, well, now you are, and GI Joe assures me that’s half the battle. If you were aware, how on earth are you thinking you come out of this looking like the civil, polite party? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/265 "2021-07-29T00:06:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are you aware that when you talk about “the tiresomely woke progressive types” and “people looking to be offended on other’s behalf” and similar phrases, everyone knows who you’re talking about, and that it’s a disagreeable thing you’re saying that’s pretty clearly aimed at specific members of this board? No, it’s a broad generality in the “Politicians are liars” or “Journalists are biased” sense. It’s not aimed at a specific, identifiable person. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/266 "2021-07-29T00:55:49Z")
Suuuuuuuuuuuure it is ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/267 "2021-07-29T00:59:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I was just using “asshole” in the descriptive sense. How weird. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/268 "2021-07-29T01:28:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, it’s a broad generality in the “Politicians are liars” or “Journalists are biased” sense. It’s not aimed at a specific, identifiable person. That’s pretty unbelievable, straight up. Given your posts in this thread, it’s really hard to think you’re telling the truth about it, although it’s not hard to believe that you’ll convince yourself you weren’t directing it (at least in part) at specific people in this thread. If you concede that you’re directing those insults at people in this thread, you’ll have to reorient your entire belief about your own participation on the Dope. If you double down with saying it wasn’t directed at people here, you’ll be able to maintain the position of martyrdom, adding to it an unjust accusation of lying. One of those options serves your narrative. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/269 "2021-07-29T01:50:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Since you mentioned me, I have to point out that none of what you mentioned here is what I consider “beyond the pale”—at least, not in the contexts they were discussed. There are a few bigoted arguments in there, but, in context, they seemed to come from a place of genuine ignorance. > > Your gripe is not with bigotry then, it is with bad faith posters. “Disingenuous” posters “who engage in ways that no person actually trying to debate the topic would.” > > – > > For another example I have also [explicitly argued that transgenderism is a disorder](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/96). Homosexuality too, in the same thread. > > If I had a different mindset I might argue that we should _do something to **fix** the disorder_ - thereby presenting the archetypical harmful message to a transgender/homosexual poster: ‘there’s something wrong with you that needs to be fixed’ (ETA: not my opinion, just to clarify). > > If you’re telling me allowing that kind of argument is okay by you, then you’ve done a full 180 from post #46. > > ~Max No, of course that is not acceptable. There is a reason such arguments are now against the rules here. It is an extremely hurtful claim said almost exclusively by people who are out to attack people who are trans or invalidate their existence. My previous comment was referring to the stuff you mentioned and stuff I remembered you saying, not everything you had ever posted. And you had, to my knowledge, not come off as a bigot. Maybe I could argue that the trans one could have just deserved a Note. It was clear by your post that what you were actually talking about was gender dysphoria, not merely being trans. This is a not uncommon misconception. So I would’ve been okay with a Note explaining this to you, and that calling transgenderism itself a disorder was offensive and not allowed. I’m honestly still not sure what to think of you calling homosexuality a disorder. You had, by that point, indicated that you had misunderstood the word “disorder” to be synonymous with “minority.” You had a tendency back then to overconfidently talk about things you had knew little or nothing about. It would be entirely consistent if you had just looked it up in a dictionary, got a bad definition, and assumed you knew as much as everyone else. On the other hand, you seemed to get what “disorder” meant when you used it the first time. To be clear, the word disorder, when used in contexts like “physical disorder” or “mental disorder,” refers to a type of **illness.** That’s why “mental illness” and “mental disorder” are often used interchangeably. As an illness, it is obviously something to be treated or “fixed” if possible. It makes no sense to call something a physical or mental disorder but then argue that you don’t mean it should be fixed. Calling homosexuality a disorder is saying there is something medically wrong with someone who for being gay. And we’ve known that to be false since the 1970s. And, similar to saying it about trans folk, it is something that is mostly argued by homophobes. You also were trying to argue in that thread that the KKK was not a hate group. Originally they would lynch black people and run them out of town with fires and such. To this day, they still run black people out of towns, albeit in more plausibly deniable ways. My friend in high school was run out of town by the KKK–which would have been in 1999 or even 2000. To be honest, you were straining credibility with all the things you were saying. It was getting hard to believe that this was just innocent ignorance and not something more malicious. Which takes me back to where the line actually is. It’s not merely about disingenuousness. It’s about maliciousness, of which disingenuousness is but one kind. There are things that are so clearly and blatantly bigoted that they must be malicious. There are also ways people say things that are malicious. There are people who remain willfully ignorant, which is maliciousness. I don’t want to scare off people who legitimately didn’t know. But those who come here to cause hurt or refuse to listen when they are told they are hurting people should be shown the door. They are not innocent people making a mistake. They are violating the first and main rule here: “Don’t be a jerk” . ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/270 "2021-07-29T01:53:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s pretty unbelievable, straight up. Given your posts in this thread, it’s really hard to think you’re telling the truth about it, although it’s not hard to believe that you’ll convince yourself you weren’t directing it (at least in part) at specific people in this thread. I was genuinely and honestly not directing those comments at specific people in the thread. They were, and are, directed as generalities at a broad group of people, both on- and off-board, who share a certain set of ideological beliefs. I’m sorry it doesn’t suit your narrative to accept that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/271 "2021-07-29T02:14:48Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I was genuinely and honestly not directing those comments at specific people in the thread. They were, and are, directed as generalities at a broad group of people, both on- and off-board, So here’s the thing. If it includes people on this board, it includes specific people on this board. That’s tautological. If you think it’s civil to insult people by dint of their membership in a broad group, as long as you’re not insulting them by name, that’s a grotesque version of civility. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/272 "2021-07-29T02:28:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So here’s the thing. If it includes people on this board, it includes specific people on this board No, it really doesn’t. If I say “There’s a group of people both on the board and off it who really like anchovies on pizza”, that’s not the same as saying “ **RandomPoster#18** really likes anchovies on pizza.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/273 "2021-07-29T03:13:50Z")
But if you then said that people who like anchovies on their pizza are awful people, you would then be attacking all of the people on the board who like anchovies on tehir pizza—as well as all the people off the board who like pizza. What happened in this thread is that you said you said you didn’t understand something. Some people tried nicely to explain it to you, but you just kept on being meaner. So gradually they started giving up, and lashing out. And you got offended. Even then, some posters attempted to be civil. @Rittersport said he’d give you the benefit of the doubt. And then you attacked trans people as “weird” and “other.” Then both @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness @Jimmy_Chitwood tried to be nice to you anyways, but you freaked out because a completely different poster called you out. You’ve also argued that tolerance is a bad thing, which, in this context, seems to be saying that trans people shouldn’t be tolerated. How dare we defend doing something to make being trans less stigmatized! If you think tolerance is a bad thing, then there’s no reason why anyone here has to tolerate you. So much is based on the rule of reciprocity. You get what you give. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/274 "2021-07-29T06:53:47Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > A number of the comments in this thread directed at me are very much the latter. Let’s be clear about the disingenuousness on offer here: ### your “different viewpoint” includes the view that me and mine should return to being enslaved by Europeans. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Nothing ‘disagreeable’ I have said is aimed at a specific member of this board. Every post you ever made here advocating colonialism and Imperialism is aimed at me. And you think you can just stroll back after 3 (not 8) years and everything will be forgotten? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/275 "2021-07-29T07:27:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > your “different viewpoint” includes the view that me and mine should return to being enslaved by Europeans. No, it doesn’t. My views on colonialism/imperialism aren’t race based, they’re “countries that can’t/won’t get their shit together” based, they aren’t based on “enslaving” anyone. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Every post you ever made here advocating colonialism and Imperialism is aimed at me. No, it really isn’t, and how much of an ego do you have to think I give you any thought at all except on the vanishingly few occasions I can recall us interacting on some general discussion topic? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/276 "2021-07-29T08:35:28Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, it doesn’t. My views on colonialism/imperialism aren’t race based, Which is irrelvant, since _you’re_ the one who brought in “race based”, not me. “Me and mine” isn’t just PoCs there, it’s _everyone_ who’s suffered under colonialism, including such White groups as the Irish. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > they aren’t based on “enslaving” anyone Like fuck they’re not. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, it really isn’t Yes, it really is. I don’t think you give me any thought. That doesn’t mean your Imperialism isn’t aimed squarely at me, and anyone else who would suffer the effects. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/277 "2021-07-29T09:56:12Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, it really isn’t, and how much of an ego do you have to think I give you any thought at all except on the vanishingly few occasions I can recall us interacting on some general discussion topic? If you criticise any group, people who are members of that group will take it personally. For example, if I were to say ‘All old British guys are stupid’, and you are an old British guy, you would take it personally, even if I wasn’t directing it at you personally.   > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > people deciding to change fairly fundamental operational-level societal operating stuff **without asking me first** , and getting shitty when I say “No thanks, I’m happy with how things are now” are the assholes. Here’s the news: Social mores have always been changing continuously, century after century. Social mores will always continue to change, and nobody is ever going ask your permission. You may as well go down to the beach and shout at the tide to stop coming in. The tide of history is always going to be moving. Sure, everything in society was just perfect (for you) 40 years ago, or whenever you were growing up, and you it want it to stay the same. You don’t want things to change because the changes don’t improve anything for you personally. You are indifferent as to whether or not they improve things for others, so long as the changes don’t affect you. However, you benefitted from society as it was, and others suffered from society as it was, so that’s fundamentally a dog in the manger attitude. And yes, there are sanctimonious people on the left, and holier than thou people on the left, and virtue signalers, and people who think they have a right to push others towards what they think is best – exactly as there are, and always have been, on the right as well. And exactly as there have always been in every society everywhere, no matter what the details of social culture have been. However, in general we seem to be moving towards a better, kinder, more open, more inclusive, more just society. So we can choose whether to be moaning old fogies, or to go with the flow good-naturedly, but the flow of change will continue regardless – hopefully in a good direction. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/278 "2021-07-29T12:39:57Z")
It sure sounds like the people complaining want to go back to the good old days when they could be bigots and not be called out on it. They don’t want civility, they want their privilege back. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/279 "2021-07-29T12:40:50Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > your “different viewpoint” includes the view that me and mine should return to being enslaved by Europeans. > > No, it doesn’t. My views on colonialism/imperialism aren’t race based, they’re “countries that can’t/won’t get their shit together” based, they aren’t based on “enslaving” anyone Ho-lee-sheeeeeet. You’re telling me this guy doesn’t just think that being inclusive of trans people is too strenuous to bother with - he also thinks we need to go colonize countries that “can’t or won’t get their shit together”? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/280 "2021-07-29T12:56:30Z")
Lebensraum, Aussie-style? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/281 "2021-07-29T13:06:09Z")
Oh God, I found it: > [@un-PC beliefs](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-pc-beliefs/555823/17): > > As for the OP, I’ve said before that I think many things were better back in the days of the British Empire. Sadly provided you weren’t ethnic, of course. > > To expand on that a bit: There are quite a few countries out there that just can’t seem to get their shit together and are now actually _worse_ off than they were at independence. The British Empire wasn’t all Tea, Cricket, & Kittens but I still think the basic idea- an industrialised, stable, civilised country “taking over the affairs” of a struggling one has merit. My grandparents lived under British rule, and let me tell you, it fucking sucked. And amazingly, it sucked for them SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than it did for the vast, vast majority of British subjects, who were browner than they were. That’s got to be the most ignorant White-Man’s-Burden bullshit I’ve ever read. And he seems to know it, too, but brushes it off with: “Sadly provided you weren’t ethnic, of course.” ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/282 "2021-07-29T13:07:33Z")
Don’t be mean. We have to be tolerant of openly white supremacist posters, or they’ll leave. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=15)