# Is this the beginning of the end? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060 "2021-07-22T15:36:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/303 "2021-07-30T14:59:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In what way does gender-ambivalent Pat, for whom stating a preferred pronoun is “more necessary”, benefit from gender/hetero-normative Kevin and Becky doing the same? Multi-national global corporations also deal with this issue aside from any trans issues. Although people in the US might know that Johnathan is a traditionally male name, people in India might not. And likewise, people in the US don’t know if Dharmendra is a traditionally male or female name. And not everyone in the world knows that Johnathans typically go by John and Dharmendras typically go by Dharm. However, generally pronouns are not specified in people’s profiles. Somehow we figure it all out. So I think one reason that the pronoun specification can rub people the wrong way is that somehow we’re able to work out pronouns for all these global people with unfamiliar names, but the transgender people want to be treated uniquely. The pronoun issue isn’t unique to the trans community. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/304 "2021-07-30T15:06:17Z")
There is a whole conversation happening in academic circles about how women academics, and scientists in particular, are routinely assumed to be male. This is particularly true since we generally use gender neutral honorifics (Dr, Professor, Dean etc). Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if this is happening in business settings as well. It’s not working out as well as you’d think. FWIW, adding pronouns is about the smallest thing ever, and if it makes a few people feel welcomed and wanted, why the hell wouldn’t I? I invited each of my students to let me know their pronouns and I had so many students express gratitude, including cis students who had trans friends and appreciated the effort. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/305 "2021-07-30T15:08:57Z")
This is an excellent point. I’ve spent my entire professional life in the IT industry. In that time I’ve had to figure out names I could not possibly identify as being male or female on first try. There have been times when I could not tell which is the first or last name. I’ve had people confused by my name by non westerners. Somehow, on first meeting or conversation, we all manage to sort it all out without hurt feelings because without exception, people want to get that sort of thing right and not cause offense. I believe that it’s a matter of personal and professional pride to get to know your co-workers or business associates name and gender pronoun, and use it correctly as quickly as possible. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/306 "2021-07-30T15:11:52Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I invited each of my students to let me know their pronouns and I had some many students express gratitude, including cis students who had trans friends and appreciated the effort. Well meaning as it is, this is activism, not pragmatism. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/307 "2021-07-30T15:15:09Z")
Honestly not sure what you mean. Can you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/308 "2021-07-30T15:16:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well meaning as it is, this is activism, not pragmatism. IMO. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I invited Activism? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/309 "2021-07-30T15:19:40Z")
I also invite them to tell me their preferred name (including nicknames), favorite hobbies, major, what they’re most excited by in the course, and most concerned about. Crazy, that I want to create a relationship with my students and get to know them, and create a space that models and supports inclusivity. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/310 "2021-07-30T15:42:34Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Activism? It sounds dirty the way you say it. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Crazy, that I want to create a relationship with my students and get to know them, and create a space that models and supports inclusivity. Not crazy at all. If I have a trans colleague, I’d also want to know what pronoun they prefer. But I would not “invite” Kevin and Becky to state their preference if their gender identity didn’t seem illusive to me. If either/both wanted to correct me because I got it wrong, I’d stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/311 "2021-07-30T15:58:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > we all manage to sort it all out without hurt feelings because without exception, people want to get that sort of thing right and not cause offense. I believe that it’s a matter of personal and professional pride to get to know your co-workers or business associates name and gender pronoun If you think these are statements that apply to trans people’s pronouns, then it makes sense that you don’t think identifying pronouns makes a difference. If you accept that it isn’t true that “without exception,” people want to get trans people’s pronouns right, then there is your distinction right there. Assuming for the sake of argument that we all agree that nobody would ever be disrespectful of a foreign-sounding name that they misjudged, that would make it a very different situation from someone protesting loudly about being told that someone they “know” is a man is actually a woman. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/312 "2021-07-30T16:12:43Z")
I don’t really know how to respond because I’m not sure how you got there from what I’m saying. Do you think that I think it’s okay to intentionally mis-gender a trans person? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/313 "2021-07-30T16:16:50Z")
I am assuming you don’t think that, and pointing out to you that you have therefore already made the necessary distinction to understand why trans pronouns are not just another matter of professionalism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/314 "2021-07-30T16:31:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But I would not “invite” Kevin and Becky to state their preference if their gender identity didn’t seem illusive to me. If either/both wanted to correct me because I got it wrong, I’d stand corrected. What if you made it the norm to “invite” everyone, all at once, rather than singling people out? What if Kevin’s gender identity seems obvious to you, but she disagrees - I get that you’ll ‘stand corrected’, or you could not assume in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/315 "2021-07-30T16:32:00Z")
Well, I used the professional setting because that’s the most likely situation in which I might meet a person and not know their preferred gender pronoun. Socially, I think it’s a much less likely issue because friends will make introductions and often provide context in advance. But I think we’re still discussing the need for everyone to assume the default position of including their preferred pronoun in various non-familial settings and contexts. I’m not convinced that should be the case. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/316 "2021-07-30T16:44:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What if you made it the norm to “invite” everyone, all at once, rather than singling people out? > > What if Kevin’s gender identity seems obvious to you, but she disagrees - I get that you’ll ‘stand corrected’, or you could not assume in the first place. Why don’t I just wait until they tell me what they would like? Let me give you a real world example that just happened to me this week: I welcomed a new member to the project team and provided this individual with the same level of access as the rest of the team members. When emailing, I used the user name, “Chen Seung Hyun N.” (not real name but very similar). I have no idea from that what the first or last name is, or what they would prefer. I assumed male but I wasn’t even sure about that so I didn’t use a gender pronoun. Turns out, this individual prefers to be called “Christopher Nolan” (again, not real name). With this many variables in play in a simple introduction, we somehow managed in a brief two email exchange establish everything necessary for me to know his gender pronoun and preferred name. What is the issue we are trying to solve? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/317 "2021-07-30T16:56:06Z")
What I’m saying is that the status quo is that a conversation about a trans person’s pronouns is a dice roll, and on a certain number of outcomes, the trans person gets harassed or demeaned or just treated rudely. That is the problem to be solved. It is a real thing. It happens a lot. The way that identifying pronouns solves that problem is that the new status quo becomes that everyone knows what everyone else’s pronouns are without a whole transaction about the _idea that pronouns exist_ precipitating it every single time. Those transactions are opportunities for people who are bigoted to act in ways that are bad, which is bad. You personally may not always be party to those transactions, because in your interactions pronouns don’t always come up. Trans people are party to those transactions all the time. _Their_ pronouns come up. So a trans person’s options are often to be misgendered, or to have that transaction every single time, and roll those dice. But there is an additional option, which is that everyone would just know the pronoun situation. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/318 "2021-07-30T16:57:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > This is recommended basically everywhere by LGBTQ organizations. > > I’m not yet convinced that LGBTQ organizations are anymore representative of all transgender people any more than they are representative of all gay people. My best friend of 35+ years has never marched lock step with gay activists, nor, according to him, did his social circle of good friends. To say that LGBTQ represents them in a way that you claim it represents trans-people would be a mistake. And these are not people who are in any way secretive or shy about being openly gay. > > Same response to @RitterSport 's post above. I appreciate the explanation. I’m just not persuaded by it. Sure, these organizations may not reflect the opinions of every single trans person. However, you would expect that, if this idea was controversial, that would be represented in the results. You instead find multiple organizations saying it’s the right thing to do, and none saying otherwise. They also explain why, and it boils down to the same thing we’re all saying. That said, you seem to have misunderstood me. I was not using the Google results as evidence. Those were to help you, by steering you to resources. I am myself one of the allies I mentioned. The basic rule of allyship is that you don’t impose your own rules onto the group. You echo what they say. You have said before that this trans stuff is new to you. And you do not act like you keep up with things very much. And that’s fine. But that also means that your imagination is likely to differ from reality. If trans people thought this trend was bad, then you would find a ton of trans people who were saying they were offended that non-trans people were listing their pronouns. That doesn’t happen. I also can’t see what part you think doesn’t make sense. Trans people don’t like to be attacked by transphobic people. But they do want people to use the correct pronouns. If they tell everyone their pronouns and no one else does, it paints a target on their back. If we all start doing it, then the transphobes can’t know if someone is trans. Your entire counterargument seems to be based on a much more limited understanding of the subject, and little actual interaction with trans people. I can’t say I have the most out of anyone, but on a board where all the trans people were pushed away, I do seem to pay more attention to this than most. I have a trans cousin-in-law, and I just generally tend to interact in trans friendly spaces online. I am not merely imagining in my own head what I think trans people want. I am not making claims about what trans people think without consulting with them first. That’s generally considered rude. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/319 "2021-07-30T16:58:47Z")
Umm, if “Chen Seung Hyun N.” had put “Christopher Nolan” “he/him” in their first email there wouldn’t have been a need for two email exchanges. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/320 "2021-07-30T17:04:01Z")
Active Directory doesn’t know the user: “Christopher Nolan” and it doesn’t much care about his preferred gender pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/321 "2021-07-30T17:08:02Z")
Ever hear of an email signature? For example, it’s how I know whether the guy whose name is “[jeffrey@company.com](mailto:jeffrey@company.com)” goes by Jeff or Jeffrey. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/322 "2021-07-30T17:09:53Z")
I’ll start a thread in GD for this, since it’s really not a Pit topic and is off-topic for this thread anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=17)