# Is this the beginning of the end? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060 "2021-07-22T15:36:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/102 "2021-07-26T01:21:10Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Man, I finally get a SDMB notification that I’m mentioned in the Pit and it’s to tell me that I’m not worth Pitting… Would you feel better if I told you to “fuck off”? Because I will, you know! In the spirit of friendship, of course. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/103 "2021-07-26T01:23:37Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > I must be a nobody. I’ve changed my own opinions after being scolded on message boards for several things over the last 30 years. > > But then maybe I’m not as steadfast as some people. Eh, the unexamined life is not worth living. That’s definitely true. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/104 "2021-07-26T01:25:47Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > It depends upon your definition of “Conservative.” If you subscribe to the modern Trumpist view that “Conservative” means a person who would: > > - gladly let people starve to death on the street rather than ask the wealthy to pay their fair share of tax > - openly prevent minorities from voting > - put women in prison for having a miscarriage > - allow human beings to die of treatable diseases rather than provide healthcare > > then yes, all conservatives are assholes. So the caricature of conservatives in your mind are all assholes. Imhave been arohnd conservatives all my life, from moderates to about as ‘Trumpian’ as you can get, amd I have never heard anyone espouse anything close to those ideas. And they would completely disagree with your framing of the issues. If yoh want to debate them, feel free to,open a thread. This isn’t the place. But you are making category errors and assigning motives that aren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/105 "2021-07-26T01:46:08Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > If you subscribe to the modern Trumpist view that “Conservative” means a person who would: > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So the caricature of conservatives in your mind are all assholes. Read for comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/106 "2021-07-26T02:03:51Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > A person who has worked all his life to build a nice safe town for his family and community and now you want to let THOSE people move in. He keeps insisting that THOSE people will bring crime and immorality to the town because that’s their nature? > > If you finally call him a racist to protect the safety of the NICE women and children, are you fighting his ignorance? > > Hell yes. What if - and this is strictly a hypothetical, so bear with me here - what about if, for whatever reason, he turns out to be right, and letting THOSE people in does actually make things worse from a crime/immorality perspective, and the statistics are there to back it up? Is he still racist? Is he still ignorant? > [@mikecurtis](#): > > If someone feels attacked, they’re not gonna want to talk at all, even if they might be open to the fact that what they’ve said or done could have bigotted implications. > > No one wants to be scolded by someone on a message board. Exactly. In fact, for a lot of people (myself included), scolding them activates our “Well you can just go and get fucked” response. For example, I have no issues with transgender people living their lives the same as you and I. What I do have an issue with is people constantly carrying on about the fact I’m not bending over backwards to accommodate a tiny, tiny number of people (as opposed to just leaving them to live their lives) and I’m tired of being told I’m a bad person for not doing virtue-signalling bullshit like “listing my pronouns” (I’m obviously male and have a male name) and all they’re doing is making me less and less amenable to whatever thing they’re pushing. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/107 "2021-07-26T02:16:23Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > What if - and this is strictly a hypothetical, so bear with me here - what about if, for whatever reason, he turns out to be right, and letting THOSE people in does actually make things worse from a crime/immorality perspective, and the statistics are there to back it up? Is he still racist? Is he still ignorant? I don’t need to play your stupid games. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/108 "2021-07-26T02:20:28Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > I don’t need to play your stupid games. It’s not a stupid game, it’s a genuine question. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/109 "2021-07-26T02:41:29Z")
This site has become more vitriolic ever since Trump was elected (we see that in this thread). The real issue is that this has escaped the discussions on Trump and has now become part of the culture here at SD. Any conservative voice here is countered with “I’m not saying you’re an asshole (that is against board rules) but conservatives are assholes and you’re a conservative.” and this is allowed to fly. But I’m not saying this means the board is biased against conservative insomuch as now there is no debate, no reasoned discussion, no “I believe this but I’m open to having my mind changed.” It is all hyperbole, and sealions moving goalposts and ad hominum attacks on politicians, celebrities and other public (and not so public) figures. Just read the threads attacking those who don’t want o get the covid vaccine. They are a collection of hate & shaming posts by people feeling morally superior to people who think differently from them. Sadly this is par for the course on many issues here. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/110 "2021-07-26T03:06:25Z")
It’s the all-or-nothing nature of it that bothers me. I feel often like I’m being forced by the left-wingers to choose sides, and their side is very all-in; you can’t be part of the club unless you believe in ALL of it, and if you don’t believe all of it, you’re an asshole and not deserving of respect, or even help changing your tire on the side of the road. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/111 "2021-07-26T03:13:01Z")
Hypothetically, let’s suppose that arguments about baseball go on for years on the SDMB, with plenty of vitriol and personal over-the-top stuff being tossed around, by all participants, but then suddenly Boston Red Sox fans seem to go crazy. They start saying things that don’t even make sense to them but get insanely angry when someone points this out. They start insisting the Sox can fly, can live forever, and have won every pennant and every game ever played, etc. One of their prominent fans on SDMB says “If Sox fans don’t start behaving like sane people soon, everyone will hate us and they’ll be right to hate us” but then he too starts spouting crazy pro-Sox nonsense. Is there a point where you concede “OK, these folks have lost their friggen minds, and you can’t talk to them,” or do you take the position that you want a return to rational, calm discussions of baseball like we used to have around here? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/112 "2021-07-26T03:16:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What’s hillarious is that this attitude is exactly why pointing out that we all contribute to racism of a societal level is necessary. That’s not what Sam Stone was discussing. He was saying that the issue with “We are all racists” is that it equates my neighbor that put out a Confederate Battle Flag to celebrate Juneteenth (true story) to the coworker that on a zoom training started crying over the shame she has over being white and growing up with privilege (another true story). ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/113 "2021-07-26T03:24:14Z")
The point I’m making is let’s presume the SD condones the crazy-over-the-top rhetoric on the Red Sox because they TPTB believe it themselves, they don’t want to alienate the 70% of the board that are Red Sox fans, there are new mods that are not sure how to handle it, whatever the reason(s). It gets to the point that everyone becomes numb to it so it starts creeping into basketball discussions, movie and tv discussions, Car repair tips, etc and now 90% of the posters are rabid on whatever topic is being discussed. “What kind of retard uses higher octane than they have to? Those people are destroying the environment.” Is there a point where you concede “OK, these folks have lost their friggen minds, and you can’t talk to them,” or do you take the position that you want a return to rational, calm discussions of everything like we used to have around here? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/114 "2021-07-26T03:25:40Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s the all-or-nothing nature of it that bothers me. I feel often like I’m being forced by the left-wingers to choose sides, and their side is very all-in; you can’t be part of the club unless you believe in ALL of it, and if you don’t believe all of it, you’re an asshole and not deserving of respect, or even help changing your tire on the side of the road. Well said. I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/115 "2021-07-26T03:55:42Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > and I’m tired of being told I’m a bad person for not doing virtue-signalling bullshit like “listing my pronouns” (I’m obviously male and have a male name) (I hesitate getting bogged down in specifics, but. . .) I can understand not liking to be told that you’re a bad person. But, this is a pretty trivial thing to fight. There’s nothing obvious about someone’s pronouns. Especially someone you’ve never met and are communicating with via text or email. What pronouns do I use for Joss? Priti? Yellow Hawk? Or even names that I might be more familiar with Charlie? Avery? Taylor? Even in person it can be tricky. I’ve had long hair most of my life and that has led to me being called “miss” or “ma’am” often. Fortunately for me, I never really cared about that. But, for someone whose spent their life struggling with their gender or has had some bad experiences with being misgendered, it can be a very important thing to get right. The pronoun thing may have come out of the trans movement, but its a pretty essential task nowadays and one that’s easy to comply with. Just do it. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/116 "2021-07-26T04:33:15Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > The pronoun thing may have come out of the trans movement, but its a pretty essential task nowadays and one that’s easy to comply with. Just do it. Yeah, no. If you’ve got a really weird or unusual or ambiguous name, then I can understand you specifically listing pronouns in e-mail communication. For everyone else it’s unnecessary and shouldn’t be encouraged. If you name is “Amy Smith” or “Robert Johnson” then you’re obviously a particular gender and it’s ridiculous virtue signalling to list your pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/117 "2021-07-26T06:15:11Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > If someone feels attacked, they’re not gonna want to talk at all Now, please take a moment and, _using that exact same metric_, think how a PoC feels on a messageboard where racist speech is freely allowed as long as it’s polite. Or a woman feels on a board where you’re still free to make male-gazey threads as long as it’s _public_ women, or a trans poster feels when subjected to a mod misgendering trans-women. Then ask yourself why the racist, sexist and transphobic voices are the ones you’d rather not have silenced by “feeling attacked”. But the minorities and marginalized are the ones who have to suck it up or get gone. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/118 "2021-07-26T07:54:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then ask yourself why the racist, sexist and transphobic voices are the ones you’d rather not have silenced by “feeling attacked”. But the minorities and marginalized are the ones who have to suck it up or get gone. Thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said any such thing. If you want to try and make this a better place for marginalized people you have two choices: You can just instantly ban anyone who expresses hateful opinions (an option many here seem to be in favor of). Or you can try to reach them and educate them about why what they are saying is wrong. I thought this was a place where ignorance was fought. And there is no greater ignorance than bigotry. But if you attack someone they’re not going to be open to discussion and you’re not going to be able to find out why they’ve said what they’ve said and how best to remedy the situation. And if you just want them gone from here then you haven’t done anything but send them somewhere else to harass someone else. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT BIGOTTED SPEECH SHOULD BE TOLERATED. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT “racist speech [should be] freely allowed as long as it’s polite”. It should be confronted every time! What I have said over and over again is that personal attacks on posters do nothing to improve the situation. Calling people names or broad brushing and entire group of people because of the actions of some (many) of it’s members is not helpful. And only adds to an environment of animosity. I believe you can attack hateful speech without being hateful yourself. Many posters here seem to want to make it better for some by making it worse for others. That doesn’t fix anything. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/119 "2021-07-26T08:19:31Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I never said any such thing. You did, just not in so few words. But if you want to keep the racists, misogynists & transphobes talking then you _don’t_ want to keep the PoCs, women & trans posters. It really is a dichotomy. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT BIGOTTED SPEECH SHOULD BE TOLERATED.[…]It should be confronted every time! > [@mikecurtis](#): > > No one wants to be scolded by someone on a message board. 🤨 > [@mikecurtis](#): > > I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT “racist speech [should be] freely allowed as long as it’s polite”. That’s the current board status quo. By arguing for keeping the racists so we can talk to them, that is _exactly_ what you’re saying. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > Calling people names or broad brushing and entire group of people When merely _naming_ what people _are_ is “calling them names”, you _can’t_ “confront” without doing so. So you _are_ very much saying their speech should be tolerated. And when someone points this out to you, it’s them you ALL CAPS SHOUT AT rather than sitting down, and being humble. Fuck you, then. You’re more interested in making a safe space for bigots’ poor delicate fee-fees than _listening_ when someone tells you how harmful that shit is. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/120 "2021-07-26T08:27:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Fuck you, then That seems to be your go to response. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060/121 "2021-07-26T08:33:16Z")
For racist-defending shitheads? Sure. What, am I supposed to feel _bad_ about that or something? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/947060.md?page=7)