# Is this the real reason we are at war? Maybe not, but it sure looks bad... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748 "2001-10-21T21:52:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/21 "2001-10-22T00:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\* > > This bugs me. I think it should bug everybody. In addition to affecting his personal wealth, George’s actions at this juncture can have an enormous impact on the wealth of all of his best friends and supporters…the folks who put him where he is today. \*\* We’ve got a long history of political leaders who’s wealth is tied to their political ideology. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Samuel Adams are among the earlier ones I can think of off the top of my head. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If anyone thinks this is all no big whoop, can you express why in a manner that does not amount to one of the following: \*\* It isn’t a big whoop. I wonder how many leaders in the Senate and the House aren’t affected economically by decisions they make in the political arena. Even the Clintons were wealthy people. > [@](#): > > \*\* > a) Accusing me and/or my source material of being traitors for even thinking to question the ethics of George during this Dark Time When We Must Back The President No Matter What or \*\* Well to begin with privateers are a thing of the past and they should remain a thing of the past. If we want to take out the Taliban and Bin Laden then we should have the balls to go in their and do it. Hiring private organizations to do that just means that we don’t want to get our hands dirty and we don’t think it is that important. > [@](#): > > \*\* > PS: Even among people who basically support George, doesn’t it bother you even a little that he’s so heavily tied to oil interests, and that so many highly placed members of his administration are too? \*\* I might be the odd man out here but I don’t see the oil interest and being any more dangerous then a lot of other interest out there. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I also heard a brief reference by one of the guests on Politically Incorrect the other night about Bush saying something recently to the effect of “Congress needs to pass my energy bill now to help win this war” WTF? Does anyone know what they were referring to? \*\* People say all sorts of things. Sarah Brady’s website are liking stronger gun laws as ways to attack terrorism. Kind of strange, eh? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/22 "2001-10-22T00:44:11Z")
The Taliban [**permitted**](http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html) Unocal to proceed with a pipeline. > [@](#): > > In January 1998, the Taliban signed an agreement that would allow a proposed 890-mile, $2-billion, 1.9-billion-cubic-feet-per-day natural gas pipeline project led by Unocal to proceed. Unocal decided to pull out, citing [women’s rights in Afghanistan,](http://www.unocal.com/uclnews/98news/centgas.htm) and claiming that DOE was wrong in saying they “signed an agreement.” I would like to hear how this war, which in my view was forced upon us through OBL choosing Afghanistan as a base, is connected to oil.\* Pointing out Bush was an oil man is not enough. Even if a pipeline is someday put through Afghanistan that does not prove the war was started to allow that, especially given the Taliban’s willingness. \*Somalia, Khobar Towers, two embassies, the Pentagon, The WTC, OBL’s private army, and a jihad aimed at destroying the U.S. seem like likely motives to me. Or, maybe it is the first war over women’s rights. These seem as probable as some amorphous connection to big oil. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/23 "2001-10-22T01:03:16Z")
I don’t believe that the war was started over oil. I do believe it might very well be expanded and prolonged because of oil. Only time will tell. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/24 "2001-10-22T01:13:05Z")
Much thanks to Stoid for posting this revealing analysis. Among other things, I am greatly impressed by the prescience displayed by Congressman Ron Paul (L)\* of Texas who fought so valiantly to change the policies that brought about September 11, but couldn’t quite bring it off…and whose “reprisal” plan stamps him as one of the foremost opportunistic morons of our time. Perhaps we could advertise for mercenary volunteers in _Soldier of Fortune_. That the Bush family is into oil and that their investments could be affected by conflict in the Middle East and Central Asia is shocking, shocking. We don’t need any evidence to show that the incursions into Afghanistan are motivated by oil considerations; we just need to hint darkly about them in the manner of right-wing crazies talking about the Clinton/Arkansas cocaine connection. Here’s another shocker. I’m of course not going to suggest that **Al Gore** manipulated events to stir up war in Central Asia. But isn’t it a horrible, horrible conflict of interest for Gore to show support for the Bush Administration’s current policies, all the while knowing that his [large personal oil fortune](http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/politics/featured/2000/goreoil.html) could be greatly increased by said policies (Al, you will remember, garnered a major investment in Occidental Petroleum, continuing a cozy relationship with said firm begun by “Daddy Gore”. I think a full-scale Congressional Investigation is called for, possibly to be followed by Letters of Marque and Reprisal.\*\* > [@](#): > > …But it does mean there is a significant MONEY subtext that the American public ought to know about as “Operation Enduring Freedom” blasts new holes where pipelines might someday be buried. > \*\* If vague unsubstantiated bull were oil, we could run a pipeline into Nina Burleigh’s brain and solve our entire energy problem. \*Loon ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/25 "2001-10-22T01:18:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*I don’t believe that the war was started over oil. > > I do believe it might very well be expanded and prolonged because of oil. > > Only time will tell.\*\* Oh, nice, pithy shot there :rolleyes:, but it would be helpful if you could explain just how, in your view, oil interests will determine the length of this war and where it will be fought. Otherwise the above doesn’t mean a whole lot. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/26 "2001-10-22T01:48:04Z")
Appellum ad ignorantiam: when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B. Stoid, you have not put forth a logical argument. Please learn the basics of logic before you continue to spew little balls of deficate derision at your bewildered adversaries. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/27 "2001-10-22T01:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > …but it would be helpful if you could explain just how, in your view, oil interests will determine the length of this war and where it will be fought. > > Otherwise the above doesn’t mean a whole lot. I won’t pre-empt **Stoid** but instead offer my own view. The war will be prolonged until a viable pro-Big Picture Government can assume control of bandit-friendly Afghanistan. And the choices at the moment don’t look great – are we looking at potentially ethnic ‘former-Afghanistan’ sub-States (as per Yugoslavia) ? ‘Big Picture’ ? he re-emergence of Russia as a world economic player based on (fundamentalist free Southern Republic) _massive_ oil production, Pakistan-Indian geo-political nuclear imbalance as pipeline building and oil processing revenue rolls in (India attacked across the Kashmir border the day Colin Powell arrived in Pakistan last week)…it goes on and on…Not so much as being just about Caspian oil as about the future of nations and regional spheres of influence. That’s the Big Picture agenda behind this ‘Alliance’ IMHO. As for Bush Senior’s interests, I have no idea but he’d be daft not to buy into the Russian oil industry at this point. As we all should. Buy ! Buy ! Buy ! ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/28 "2001-10-22T04:06:54Z")
I sat and attempted to think of a way for our nation to achieve its national security goals. It is not enough, I thought, to merely eliminate the threat. We must show that they are wrong when they say that we are too lazy and decadent to defend our way of life; otherwise others will surely come after. I also considered the equal importance of ensuring that the damage to the innocent would be minimized, that all operations be conducted in a civilized and disciplined manner. And thinking on these things, the answer came to me … let’s hire some mercenaries to do it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/29 "2001-10-22T04:39:16Z")
Two thoughts: **1. Hey Stoid: Occam’s Razor.** The whole conspiracy theory bit is just a little too complicated to be true. Put yourself in my position, as an observer. I have two possibilities I can believe. A) That the US is pursuing this war because of the financial interests of the President, and that he has managed to bribe/pay off pretty much every other person working for the entire federal government to go along with this, and in so doing plans to exploit the possibility of getting extra oil reserves from Kazakhstan, Turkmenstan, and possibly some other Stans, and that this is connected to the President’s father being VERY distantly and vaguely connected to relatives of Osama bin Laden, so they might be planning to profiteer off the war or maybe get more oil, or something OR B) The U.S. is pursuing the war in self-defense after being attacked, and Bush’s motive is to prevent more attacks. Which would you pick? I picked B. **2. Letters of MARQUE?** Jesus Murphy; why not just arm the Green Berets with muskets and start building ballistas? Every civilized nation in the world has abandoned such nonsense, because they know what it invariably results in; even MORE piracy than before. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/30 "2001-10-22T04:40:05Z")
Privateers Well, I’m no military tactician but it did strike me that the justification for the parachute raid seemed less than convincing – why then, why there _particularly_ (given that we knew they’d already departed), to what important end, etc…? Yet at the same time, it later emerged, Special Forces were making contact with Taliban-ish groups elsewhere in Southern Afghanistan. They may not have taken briefcases of cash with them but I’d imagine carrots were mentioned. And I don’t mean dietary variation. It’s not difficult to imagine the conversation: “One way or the other Bin Ladin’s fertiliser, you do it and it’s Lottery size cheques plus a slice of the south. Gee, you hear those planes overhead ?” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Pinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dr.Pinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Pinky)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/31 "2001-10-22T06:40:39Z")
we’ve got 6 personal attacks, 6 business as usual/the war is just; 2 We Must Back The President No Matter What, and 1 charge of irrelevancy. I haven’t seen anyone debunk the basic premise. Y’all seem to be too wrapped up in your own personal world views to _expand_ your thought beyond what the television, your sargeant, or neighbor tells you what to think. Or, perhaps, you’re not thinking at all - perhaps you’re just running on feelings. We’ve all had extreme feelings over the last month with which we’ve had to deal. I know it’s left me stressed, paranoid, and physically in pain. Some people are able to process the pain we’re all going through quicker and return to rationality, and ask questions like: who profits? Ask yourself this: who is making money off of your emotional response right now? ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/32 "2001-10-22T07:20:52Z")
Occam’s Razor #2: Option 1: Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. spend much of their lifetimes amassing oil and defense-related interests, in the hopes that, in chances that Jr. achieves the Office of the President, in order to start a war so that those interests will be indirectly increased in value. Option 2: Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. buy into oil and defense-related interests because that’s where the money is. And it just happens that _some_ of those interests stand to increase in value, just as many other industries do in times of crisis. Stoid, m’man, next you’ll be accusing Bush of owning controlling stock in Red Cross, Inc. This is all just a plot to become the World’s first Whole-Blood Robber Baron, right? Hey, it’s going to take a lot of steel and concrete to rebuild the Towers… start checking to see if the Bushes own some NY-based construction companies. Gee, some large industries stand to earn money from this ongoing event. The industries best equipped or with the best positioning tend to earn the lion’s share. Because they’re profitable industries even without Wartime footings, people with the capital to invest tend to invest in them. Heck, that’s unethical. The Bushes _obviously_ should have invested in industries that were unlikely to make a profit… Or should only have invested in businesses that would _decrease_ in value in the event of terrorist attacks. You seem to have a firm grasp on the art of conspiracy theorem, now try world economy and the Market. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/33 "2001-10-22T07:32:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr.Pinky \* > \*\*Some people are able to process the pain we’re all going through quicker and return to rationality, and ask questions like: who profits? > > Ask yourself this: who is making money off of your emotional response right now? \*\* Tell us, Dr. Pinky. And show some evidence that someone has profited. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/34 "2001-10-22T08:10:35Z")
Thanks for that, Dr. Pinky. I’d like to point out to some people who seem to have missed it, the \* the very first sentence of the post: \* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Me \* \*\* > Before I plunge in, let me first say that I am not accusing George Bush of creating this situation. > \*\* Therefore, those of you who wish to continue to argue with me as though that is what I have said may continue to do so, but don’t expect me to respond. There’s a conflict of interest. It is at the very least, unseemly. All I’ve asked for outright is that the conflict of interest be fixed. Even if George’s motives are as pure and unfettered as a newborn babe’s, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that he makes sure they look as pure as they actually are, do you? Is it so unforgivable to ask him and Daddy to give up some profits? And if you really believe it is, can you explain why? stoid ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/35 "2001-10-22T12:16:45Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* \*\* > [@](#): > > ‘Big Picture’ ? he re-emergence of Russia as a world economic player based on (fundamentalist free Southern Republic) _massive_ oil production, Pakistan-Indian geo-political nuclear imbalance as pipeline building and oil processing revenue rolls in (India attacked across the Kashmir border the day Colin Powell arrived in Pakistan last week)…it goes on and on…Not so much as being just about Caspian oil as about the future of nations and regional spheres of influence. > > That’s the Big Picture agenda behind this ‘Alliance’ IMHO.\*\* To avoid sounding like a British version of Lyndon Larouche, **LC** , try submitting some actual evidence to support what you think the Dark Forces are doing. I think you owe it to those hapless troops battling in Afghanistan to support Russian “spheres of influence”. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/36 "2001-10-22T12:36:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > There’s a conflict of interest. No there isn’t. I am aware of no legal rule that says _you_ have a conflict of interest due to _your father’s_ investments. And unless you come up with one that proves me wrong, I’m going to continue to write this off as simply more anti-Bush hysteria. And remember, I detest Dubya. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/37 "2001-10-22T13:04:40Z")
Can someone show dumb ole me how continuing the war past it’s neccasry goal will increase some companies bottom line? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/38 "2001-10-22T13:16:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I haven’t seen anyone debunk the basic premise. Y’all seem to be too wrapped up in your own personal world views to _expand_ your thought beyond what the television, your sargeant, or neighbor tells you what to think. Or, perhaps, you’re not thinking at all - perhaps you’re just running on feelings. Maybe I missed something, but my undersatnding of Stoid’s OP is essentially “I don’t disagree with what Bush has done so far, but I don’t trust him, so I worry he might do something I don’t agree with in the future.” That’s not a premise; that’s an opinion. In an attempt to disabuse this opinion, I pointed out that Bush has clearly stated what his goals are and appears to be acting in accordance with those goals. To me that’s as close to debunking as the shaky nature of the premise will allow. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/39 "2001-10-22T14:55:37Z")
Every conflict, war, battle, decision has potential negative consequences or can be found to have some strange ties to some personal interest. Big whoop, Stoid. Like, if Bush, Sr. didn’t show up to protect middle eastern oil in th Gulf war, the Stoids of the world have come out in droves to declare that Bush didn’t go to war in the Gulf because it was really about oil, and by not protecting the oil in the Gulf, it would have made the Bush family very rich because their oil interests in the US would have been incredibly more valuable. The Japanese were about as hellbent as ANY group of Islamic Extremists anywhere on destroying the US. Do we need to go through the details of just exactly how we crushed Japan. UNDERSTAND??? According to Stoid, Japan should have spent the years from 1945-present bombing and killing Americans around the globe, because our campaign against their military and CIVILIANS just served to stir up more trouble fro Americans…after all, they hated us with the passion of today’s exteremists. WELL, we bombed them into the dark ages, humiliated them and we don’t flinch when they sit next to us on airplanes. GOT IT? Ironic becuase it was the Japanese that made it popular to kill the hated americans by suicide plane missions. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/40 "2001-10-22T15:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*I don’t believe that the war was started over oil. > > I do believe it might very well be expanded and prolonged because of oil. > > Only time will tell. > > stoid \*\* Stoid, you’ve overlooked another potential conflict. Don’t forget that W’s business background includes ownership of the Texas Rangers. Maybe he’s pursuing the war because he aims to start an American League franchise in Kabul. IMHO this makes just as much sense as your oil theory. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748.md?page=3)