# Is this the real reason we are at war? Maybe not, but it sure looks bad... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748 "2001-10-21T21:52:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/141 "2001-10-24T02:59:22Z")
My apology, **Guinn** In penance, I will force my self to picture Janet Reno as a Victoria’s Secret model. Surely that is punishment enough! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/142 "2001-10-24T03:04:27Z")
I’m going to start a new thread on U.S. Middle-East policies rather than respond in this mess of a thread, ye scurvy dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/143 "2001-10-24T03:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Looking back, it is clear that he is only guilty of confusing Scylla with Narcissus. Arrr. Not only are your politics flotsam on the tide, ye can’t even come up with a decent mythological analogue. I’d help you out, Icky, but I see no further need to play Deadulus when yer’ doin such a fine job of goin’ down in a flaming fireball all by yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/144 "2001-10-24T03:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **Looking back, it is clear that he is only guilty of confusing Scylla with Narcissus.** You’re actually speaking of yourself in the third person?!!\*\* > [@](#): > > Now, **thats** pervo, in my book. \*\* Arrrrrr. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/145 "2001-10-24T05:04:51Z")
I raise a dozen points in my last post to Stoid for her to respond to, to defend her assertions. She has turned me into one of her infamous “non-persons,” though. Hamish comes along, supports her position, smooches a little ass, and she responds forthwith. This is a debate? No, it’s a joke. Can I steer, Cap’n Scylla? Huh? Huh? Can I? Oh come on, just for a minute! I’ll only go straight! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/146 "2001-10-24T06:05:43Z")
Its a vision to warm the heart, it truly is! **Scylla, Milo, Jack, Sammy** and the rest of thier virile crew of manly sailors, cast off and setting course for Afghanistan, to smite the infidel… (No, don’t tell them. They’ll figure it out. Or not. Whatever.) ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/147 "2001-10-24T06:27:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*\*Can I steer, Cap’n Scylla? Huh? Huh? Can I? Oh come on, just for a minute! I’ll only go straight! \*\* Damn yer eyes, laddie. Well, if not steerin’ the ship, I’ll be working yonder cannon on the quarterdeck. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/148 "2001-10-24T13:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid > My point has been: pay attention. So far so good, just do not turn a blind eye. Don’t get so caught up in revenge, fear, patriotism, whatever, that we forget that our government has been known to do things it turned out later we weren’t so happy about, in the name of protecting us. Let’s not make that mistake again. With that in mind, here’s some interesting information. > > stoid \*\* Well, that’s toning it down to a point that makes it clear you are practically abandoning your OP points. Thanks - although now it hardly warrants it’s place in Great Debates now that you’ve put it that way. Is it me, or does everyone else see this as Stoid’s way of deflecting the pressure put on Stoid by other posters? Kind of nice to see you succumb, Stoid. Sort of validates what WE have been saying. Thanks, Stoid. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/149 "2001-10-24T20:54:29Z")
[homer simpson] Mmmmm…Sodomy… [/homer simpson] What have ya’ll got against sodomy? But back to burning our spies. How can we expect to infiltrate these deadly terrorist cells if we put the names and addresses of our spies on the front page of the New York Times and the Washington Post? Everyone complains that we don’t have any informants over there, but perhaps this might have something to do with our tendency to throw our agents to the wolves whenever it is expedient. As spymasters, American suck. Give me the Brits any day. They know the value of loyalty, they aren’t embarrassed by lying to the public, hell, hypocricy is cultivated as a thing of beauty over there. Look, how are we going to recruit spies if we constantly reveal them? These aren’t American citizens, they are people who give us information for their own reasons…greed, revenge, hate, desire for justice, unrequited love. Nobody becomes a spy for the CIA because they wish to help America. If we follow this logic, we might as well give up on having a spy agency. We’ll learn what the terrorists are up to once they commited their next atrocity. After all, gentlemen don’t read each other’s mail, do they? ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/150 "2001-10-24T23:13:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Oh yeah, a liberal pirate, yeah right! > > I can see it now: > > "Arrr, best we just leave that treasure ship alone lest we be violatin’ their civil rights. > > Don’t forget to make sure the ship is peg leg accesible. > > Take that skull and crossbones down matey. It be a symbol of oppression and we wouldn’t want to offend anybody 'afore we plunder their ship and send them to meat Davey Jones. > > No! don’t be firin’ that cannon, the conncussion is liable to disturb sensitive marine mammals. > > Maybe we should just pull into port and get some latte." Sorry. This is my first “me too”-like post ever. But I just have two words for Scylla: You rock. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/db5fbb/32.png) [@jabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabe)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/151 "2001-10-25T00:37:31Z")
A lot of threads on this board are ‘debunked’ because all of the posters’ information comes from either the ‘left press’ or the ‘right pres.’ Where is the impartial press? I dont think there is such a thing. Now would you have believed Stoids OP if his sources were the New York Times and the Washington Post? Would they post such things even if they were true? What sources do you consider impartial? These questions are aimed at thoes who dismiss the OP just because it came from the ‘left press’ and wasn’t on the front page of the New York Times or [cnn.com](http://cnn.com). peace, JB ps. Stoid, I think you bring up some very good points. I believe it is a conflict of interest, and we shouldn’t ignore it just because there have been conflicts of interest in past presidencies. I hate the argument “it’s always been that way so why try to change it now?” True change is often started by unpopular ideas. Stick in there 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/152 "2001-10-25T01:43:27Z")
pssst! **Stoid** is a she. Just thought you’d like to know. ---
**Author:** ![jabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/db5fbb/32.png) [@jabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabe)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/153 "2001-10-25T02:35:44Z")
Sorry, Stoid…I did know actually, though not before reading this thread. Just a slip-up 🙂 peace, JB ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/154 "2001-10-25T06:46:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jabe \* > \*\* > > ps. True change is often started by unpopular ideas. Stick in there 🙂 \*\* Exactly so. I’ve never believed that majorites determined realities. And rest assured, I will. Thanks for the support. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/155 "2001-10-25T13:26:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jabe \* > > \*\* > > > > ps. True change is often started by unpopular ideas. Stick in there 🙂 \*\* > > Exactly so. I’ve never believed that majorites determined realities. > > And rest assured, I will. Thanks for the support. > > stoid \*\* Oh, well that’s just peachy. Warm hug everyone. If this is the feeling, then you are just annoying people by using Great Debates for political grand standing that does nothing but create partisonship. Obviously, by blindly sticking to your guns, you have done nothing warranting a “Great Debate”. Yes, sometimes the minority is right. That hardly justifies putting your fingers in your ears and singing “lalalalalalalalala”. Last time I checked, it (G.Debates) was about putting forth valuable points, not declaring yourself a minority who is getting piked on. Peachily, you reassure yourself that the majority isn’t always right. Again, a basic principle of what our government is based upon: The majority is “right”. When the minority is right, they still have the burdern to convince the majority to see things their way. So far, you’ve managed to toss aside the notion that congress represents the people and that there is value in a majority. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/156 "2001-10-25T13:36:48Z")
Jabe: The problem with this hypothesis is that it has absolutely nothing to support it. It’s mere speculation, with nothing to recommend it. In fact, there are many reasons that make it extremely unlikely if not impossible for this scenario to occur, none of which the OP has bothered or posesses the knowledge to refute (which seems to be her only defense.) Let me provide another scenario that makes every bit as much sense: Osama Bin Laden, working through his agents, attempts a campaign of disinformation, and spreads rumors throughout the liberal press (who he knows are political enemies of Bush.) The goal is to discredit Bush and his efforts, thus calling into question the integrity of the reasons behind the war, and hampering the war effort by second guessing all actions in the worst possible light. If enough attention can be garnered to this viewpoint, crippling restrictions will be placed on the Government’s ability to resolve the situation, and the American people will gradually shift from seeing the Taliban as an agressor, and more as a trapped animal that simply struck wildly under the inescapable pressures and machinations of big business. We lose the will to fight and withdraw before the scenario has reached its conclusion and Osama and the Taliban are handed a victory, given greater credibility and room to operate. Far-fetched? Yup. It’s pure speculation without a fact to support other than paranoia. A reasonable person probably shouldn’t take it seriously. It shares those two traits in common with the OP. As a scenarios though, it makes a lot more sense than the OP’s which on top of being paranoid speculation, is grounded in an unreasoning approbrium for the administration in general. Stoid’s presentation of this scenario is made through glasses tinted with her unreasoning hatred of Bush and Republicans in general. That tint hides far more than it shows, and Stoid’s aguments are about as credible as Chicken Little’s. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/157 "2001-10-25T13:48:56Z")
Jabe: Oh, and yes it is surely true that the majority isn’t always right. You’ll recall that this fact was apparently mentioned in Jonestown, and by David Koresh, and by those Comet People who cut off their penises and killed themselves thinking they’d be magically transported to the comet. I bring these examples up, because they have a lot in common with the tone and reasoning of the OP: 1. The ability to ignore reason 2. Total ignorance of the pertinent subject matter 3. Placing conclusions before facts. 4. The ability to ignore compelling evidence to the contrary Wishing or wanting it to be so, doesn’t make it so. I also understand that a minority of people 1. believe the world is flat 2. That we didn’t land on the moon 3. That dragons are real 4. That the Easter Bunny is real Being a minority doesn’t prove you wrong, in that you are correct, However, when you’re in the minority, you don’t know what you’re talking about, ignore evidence, are partial to one conclusion, have nothing to support your viewpoint… Well, then it starts to become a pretty safe bet. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/158 "2001-10-25T13:59:59Z")
And that’s at least the second time Stoid has showed up almost instantly to thank someone in her cheering section, while ignoring people that wish to engage her on the premises with which _she_ has started this “debate.” By my count, she now has several dozen points noted by those who disagree with her to discuss. It’s almost outrageous enough to ask for moderator intervention. But I’m perfectly content with simply seeing her get her ass kicked, Walter Mondale style. And, oh c’mon Cap’n Scylla! What’s the worst I can do? It’s not like I’m going to capsize the ship by being behind the wheel for five minutes! ---
**Author:** ![Blacksheepsmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@Blacksheepsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blacksheepsmith)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/159 "2001-10-25T14:25:03Z")
You pirates have been reduced to firing cannonballs at jellyfish. As Philster pointed out, this one looks like its over. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748/160 "2001-10-25T15:02:00Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Scylla \* [list=1][li]The ability to ignore reason[/li][li]Total ignorance of the pertinent subject matter[/li][li]Placing conclusions before facts.[/li][li]The ability to ignore compelling evidence to the contrary[/list=1][/li][/quote] You left out: [ul]5. Believe that FDR knew when the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor and let it happen.[/ul] I mention that because the original poster in this thread is of that group (unless she’s finally accepted reality regarding that issue). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-the-real-reason-we-are-at-war-maybe-not-but-it-sure-looks-bad/88748.md?page=9)