Is this the time for a third party to have a shot at the Presidency?

Only if it came with a parliamentary structure that put parties at the center.

My understanding: Only during the run-up to the Civil War, already mentioned, when the Whigs fragmented and the Democrats split North-South over slavery and the Republicans were formed to put some pieces together. But the 2-party split goes back to the Jefferson-Hamilton debate, with only name changes and formalization of organization since. Issues have been transitory, the Reps and Dems are no longer discussing abolition or the gold standard, but the broader attitudes defining them are just inherent.

I did say I’d get off the soapbox, didn’t I? Sorry.

I dunno. If we had instant runoff voting, you’d see a LOT more 3rd party votes. In the last election in San Francisco, the mayor’s race went into a runoff vote, with a candidate from the Green Party competing with a Democrat. Granted, SF is hardly typical, politically, in this country, but I think you’d find a lot more Green and Libertarain voters at all levels if people didn’t think they were “throwing their votes away” by voting 3rd party.

I’m of the opinion that it was already too late by 1996; when Perot didn’t let the people who’d done all the work in '92 take over the party over the next year or so, the volunteers of '92 drifted away, the energy dissipated, and the political circumstances of 1992 that were amenable to a centrist third party were overtaken by events - the political storm that was 1994. By 1996 the landscape had changed drastically, and Perot was just a weak candidate, rather than the vehicle for a movement.

Political moments can be surprisingly brief sometimes. One must capitalize on one’s moment while it’s there; it won’t hang around forever.

I don’t know about federalism, but IMHO, there’s one simple and politically feasable reform that would give third parties at least a fighting chance: runoffs in all Federal elections where neither candidate got 50% of the vote.

That way people could vote for their genuine preference in the initial round, knowing that they weren’t making it any more possible for an undesirable candidate to win. Then they could vote for the lesser of the evils in the runoff.

What this allows is for minor parties to publicly measure their true support, and climb towards competitiveness without the whole “can’t vote for the Libertarian, because I’d elect a Dem” or “If I vote for the Green, I might cause a Republican to be elected” business to contend with. It would have been interesting to see how many more votes Anderson in 1980, Perot in 1992, or Nader in 2000 would have gotten if people hadn’t been worried about electing Reagan/Clinton/Bush by supporting the third-party candidate.

Not to mention, when I was an Anderson volunteer in 1980, I got tired of hearing that I’d cause Reagan to win. (I’d point out that I didn’t want either Carter or Reagan to win, and that I honestly wasn’t sure which was the lesser of the evils, but I still got tired of it.)

Libertarians (and to a lesser extent, third parties generally) do very well in local elections. There are hundreds of LP party candidates in offices all over the country. But then, local governments don’t usually have two-party Congresses, onerous ballot access laws, and welfare for the duopoly party candidates.

Actually they do, in the U.S. Even where local elections are nominally “nonpartisan.”

Is it your contention that if we eliminated whichever rules you believe make elections “duopolies” that the Libertarian party would have success in Federal elections?

Sort of, but not exactly. At present, it doesn’t have even a remote chance of success no matter what the ideological swing or mood of the country. Even if people wanted to vote for you, if you couldn’t get on the ballot, you’d have to depend on write-ins. Eliminating the advantages enjoyed by Republicans and Democrats would not guarantee success, but it would provide unprecedented opportunity.

Times may have changed since I was active in the LP. But years ago, local ballot access was almost universally easy. And no city that I knew of ever gave candidates money for their campaigns.

What I mean was, even in “nonpartisan” local elections, it’s generally understood which candidate is the Republican and which is the Democrat, and they generally have the support of the local party organization.

Just one more comment on the whole business of Kos moving the Dems leftward, from the blogger’s mouth:

I’ve been reading DailyKos almost daily for nearly two years. Markos is not misrepresenting himself in Newsweek; this is where he really is.

Yes, but what exactly does partisanship independent of ideology mean? Will you take the fight to the enemy? Why are the Republicans your enemy if you don’t care if they’re liberal or conservative?

It just makes no sense, it’s just old-school urban machine politics where the machine has no ideology besides handing out perks and graft, except without the perks and graft.

We don’t care what you stand for or what policies you want to enact, as long as you automatically oppose everything the enemy party stands for? :rolleyes: So if George Bush told you not to shove your dick in a sausage grinder, you’d do it because he said not to?

A party is a political tool, a tool for accomplishing political goals. If you have no political goals, then why exactly would you support a political party?

Lemur: I had the exact same reaction, although I don’t know if **RTF **is saying he agrees that orgs like TDK are moving the Dems left or not. Surely if you oppose everything Republican, you will move the Democratic party to the left.

I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I have no problem with a party backing its own. My problem is with government backing one (or two) against all others.

That’s one of the reasons why I keep insisting a multiparty system is better than a two-party system: In a multiparty system, the parties make more sense – they’re smaller, more ideologically homogenous, and you actually know what you’re getting when you vote for the party label. In a two-party system, OTOH, everybody who wants to participate at all feels pressure to huddle under one of the two “big tents,” so the parties have to become more accommodating to a diverse range of viewpoints within – with the result that the parties become little more than two warring tribes, without coherent ideological direction.

So there.

Please don’t take this as trying to talk down to anyone, it mostly background information.

A little known fact…. there has been a third party that won the White House. In 1864, Abraham Lincoln was not very popular and wasn’t predicted to win a second term. Charles C. Fremont, a radical Republican rival of Lincoln, was nominated to represent the Republicans in the 1864 elections. Republicans that were loyal to Lincoln held a second convention under the banner of the National Union(Unity) Party. This third party was an attempt to draw war-hawk Democrats to Lincoln. They chose a pro-war Democrat, Andrew Johnson, to run as Lincoln’s Vice President. By the time of the election, the war was turning around to favor the North, Lincoln’s chances were improving, and Fremont was pressured into leaving the race to keep General McClellan, the Democratic Presidential candidate, from winning.

As for the idea that all third party candidates are fringe candidates; that is debatable. Without going into a long political history here, FDR is credited with starting the modern Democratic party. Since FDR, the Democratic Party as a whole is generally left of political center, the Republican Party, the right of center. In 1948, Henry Wallace was on the liberal left of the Democratic Party, but Strom Thurmond was on the conservative right of the Democratic Party. This would put Thurmond as close to the political center as Truman and Dewey. George Wallace in 1968 was also a conservative Democrat, before he ran on the American Independent Party ticket. Several books have reported that in 1972, Nixon was relieved when his staff reported that Wallace had been shot, because he was the only candidate that could possibly beat him. Nixon and his staff concluded that even if Wallace didn’t get the Democratic nomination, Wallace would run again as an independent and not only get Democrats and independents, but unhappy Republicans.

The list of modern major third party candidates is full of center candidates. John Anderson was by far closer to the political center than Reagan or Carter. In the election of 1992, the Bush-Clinton-Perot competition was all about who could control the center.

There are several reasons why third parties don’t do better nationally, and especially in Presidential elections. One of the reasons is the system is controlled by the two major parties. Half of the money collected by my party (the Libertarian Party) is spent just getting on the ballot. Neither of the two major parties ever have to fight to get on the ballot. The two major parties also collected taxpayer money to use to campaign with, while the smaller parties only receive federal money after the election. And the threshold is set so high that most third party candidates never receiver anything…and when they do they only receive a fraction of the money of the major candidates. The Libertarian Party refuses to take taxpayer money, but if I had ran in the 2004 election as a National Independent Party candidate and had one the every one of the popular vote, Bush/Republican Party and Kerry/Democratic Party would have spent $500 million of federal money while I received zero. In 2008 the Republicans and Democrats would split $550 million and I would get just $50 for my party.

Anyway my point is that to win the Presidency it takes money. None of the present third parties have the ability to raise the money needed to win the White House. Some people think that a big name person could win, but I doubt name recognition alone can get you very far. Perot was a billionaire that got a lot of free press, but he never amount to a serious change. Months before the election he was polling neck and neck with Clinton and Bush but if the election had been three months earlier or even six months earlier he still wouldn’t have had won even a single electoral vote. An AP story earlier this year stated that Ralph Nader’s 2004 campaign spend more money that Perot did in 1992. Why? One can wonder what would have happen if Perot had spent some of his wealth on his campaign.

Perot was the most successful of the modern third party candidates, but Wallace’s 68 campaign is considered a more serious threat. History makes him out to be just a southern bigot( as an Alabamian I would say this stereotype is wrong), but at the time he was very popular nationwide. Both the Humphrey’s and Nixon’s camps knew that Wallace was satisfied with just collecting electoral votes to “sell” the election to whomever gave him the most. If he succeeded then he might have created a whole new political party around himself. Because of Wallace’s threat, early in the campaign season both major candidates attacked Wallace’s position without even mentioning the other major candidate. While Wallace ran on the “State’s Right” platform, the Democrats played up his controversial racial policies and the Republican’s claimed he was a war-hawk. Early in the campaign Wallace did quite well but as the campaign progressed he lacked money to fight of negative press. And like all modern campaigns his critics were quick to jump on every problem in his campaign and he was without the means to defend himself. Using the Alabama state plane to campaign, doing more campaigning than governing, etc….all made national stories. The final straw was when Wallace’s running mate, Curtis LeMay, stated to the press that one way to handle Vietnam was to “Nuke North Vietnam”. Wallace had no funds to fight damage control and so with that one event so went Wallace’s 68 election. Earlier in the campaign he polled in the low 20s and was gaining… and he finished the race with just 13% (9,900,000 votes). If he had just a little more money for damage control and campaigning he might have won the 500,000 votes needed to play “spoiler.”

So if you want to be a third party President then I would say you need around $250 million in your checking account…or place $1 on craps and “let it ride” 29 times in a row. But if you can win 29 times in a row in craps, Murphy’s Law says that a meteorite will strike you dead as you exit the casino; so running for President may be out of the question.

As for the two party system, the problem isn’t with the parties’ platforms but the number of parties themselves. Two parties don’t allow for differences in ideas. As a Libertarian I share values with both major parties, but I disagree with them on just as many. If the Democrat party today accepted the platform of the Libertarian Party where would the Environmental element of party go? They surely wouldn’t find a home in the Republican Party. If the Republican Party adopted the Libertarian platform where would the Religious Right? With the Democrats’ pro-choice platform I don’t think they would be welcome there. I disagree with most of the Green Party platform but I hope they succeed. I don’t agree with the Constitution/ Patriot Party platform but I hope to see them succeed as well. Natural Law, American Independent, Socialist, Communist, Worker’s World, etc…I want them all. I would love to see the day when most Americans can vote for the person they believe in, not the lesser of two evils.

I thought it was pretty clear from the quote that the ‘you’ he’s talking to is fellow Democrats, and Dem pols in particular.

So it isn’t that he doesn’t care whether Republicans are liberal or conservative (although he’d surely say that doesn’t matter too, for other reasons) but Democrats. He’s saying that if you’re representing the Democratic Party, it’s important to be able to say clearly why you’re a Democrat and not a Republican, to be able to point to and enunciate significant differences between the parties that matter, that are important.

If such differences don’t exist for you, then you’ll not do a good job of representing
the party.

And it’s important to stand up for the party, because while the rather large ideological gap between the two parties means major differences in outcomes based on which party is running things, it won’t make any difference unless Dem pols are making it clear to the people just what those differences are, and why they matter.

Otherwise the Dems will continue to look blurry.

That is, unless you assume that there’s a very significant difference already between the two parties, and that even a conservative Democrat should be able to point to fundamental issues that distinguish where he stands from where the party of Bush, DeLay, and Grover Norquist stands. Which, AFAIAC, is a pretty solid assumption.

And given that assumption, the main need is to clarify those differences in the mind of the public, so they know the Dems are giving them a clear choice.

But nonsense like this only makes sense if you don’t believe those differences exist in the first place. They do, they’re pretty huge, and the part that’s missing is getting the message out.

:dubious: Really? What important political differences distinguish Joe Lieberman from John McCain?

In defense of RT, that’s a pretty loaded question. What is to prevent you from declaring that any difference he might name fails to qualify as “important”?

Nothing, but at least it would be a point I would try to engage and argue seriously.