# Is this too exaggerated of is it perfectly accurate: anti-capitalist rant **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429 "2015-04-24T12:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/41 "2015-04-24T21:29:06Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > You have persuaded me over to your side of thinking. When you eventually get all that money will you please contact me because I am barely scraping by and I could really use it. It sounds like your better off than me right now. Well I currently derive no income from that trust. My Father’s passion, now that he retired, is buying up pieces of land 5 and 10 acres at a time. He’s got like 700 something acres now. I think he wants to die with 1000. Not to be flippant but “I’m barely getting by” I hear that all the time now. I hear all the struggles Millennials are having with student debt. I heard a statistic that 62% of all bankruptcies are caused by a medical illness. 62% [http://rollingjubilee.org/](http://rollingjubilee.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/42 "2015-04-24T23:02:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > . . . Easterners and city folk visit the west and see its grandeur but what they don’t understand is what they are really seeing is a pale reflection of what the land looked like in the 1870s. Sure, dozens of families become wealthy but the exploitation of the wealth of the American west did not really benefit the majority of the US population. . . . Oh, darn. The conversation seems to have moved on. I could leave it alone, but I already have the link. Ahem. If you’re talking sheer acreage, [the feds kept most of The West.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/US_federal_land.agencies.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/43 "2015-04-24T23:56:51Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Oh, darn. The conversation seems to have moved on. I could leave it alone, but I already have the link. > > Ahem. If you’re talking sheer acreage, [the feds kept most of The West.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/US_federal_land.agencies.svg) I think he means, less forests, less undammed rivers, less wolves, less of nature in general. As far as the Feds having most of that land, well yes, they do. Your comment was accurate. I’m not sure if trying to sort out my opinion vs his opinion vs your opinion is really that critical or necessary. But if you do want to make a further point, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/44 "2015-04-25T01:14:55Z")
There’s too much in the original post to really address everything, but one thing I find interesting is the assertion that the average person didn’t benefit from the railroads. The “robber barons” were only able to amass enormous fortunes because shipping by railroad was so much cheaper than any other option. Even charging extortionist rates, few people had any affordable alternative other than the railroads. Since the things they shipped in the biggest bulk were things like wheat and coal, these are precisely the things that benefit people lowest on the economic ladder. Any reduction in price for wheat benefits the poor. (Even if we argue that there should have been a bigger reduction in wheat prices, we’re still having to admit that the poor benefit from railroads.) In fact, the silly anti-capitalist rant actually admits its own mistake. It says: “but the exploitation of the wealth of the American west did not really benefit the majority of the US population” but then later concludes “Sure, it generates wealth and gives people jobs” I think that’s a fair criticism of capitalism. It has its weaknesses, but it generates wealth and gives people jobs. The only things worse than capitalism are the alternatives. Anyway, on the environmental front: what ecological paradise are we comparing the West to? How about the Chinese? Combining millennia of wisdom from native populations with the inherent fairness of communism, they have… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/45 "2015-04-25T03:50:25Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > There’s too much in the original post to really address everything, but one thing I find interesting is the assertion that the average person didn’t benefit from the railroads. > > The “robber barons” were only able to amass enormous fortunes because shipping by railroad was so much cheaper than any other option. Even charging extortionist rates, few people had any affordable alternative other than the railroads. Since the things they shipped in the biggest bulk were things like wheat and coal, these are precisely the things that benefit people lowest on the economic ladder. Any reduction in price for wheat benefits the poor. (Even if we argue that there should have been a bigger reduction in wheat prices, we’re still having to admit that the poor benefit from railroads.) > > In fact, the silly anti-capitalist rant actually admits its own mistake. It says: “but the exploitation of the wealth of the American west did not really benefit the majority of the US population” but then later concludes “Sure, it generates wealth and gives people jobs” > > I think that’s a fair criticism of capitalism. It has its weaknesses, but it generates wealth and gives people jobs. The only things worse than capitalism are the alternatives. > > Anyway, on the environmental front: what ecological paradise are we comparing the West to? How about the Chinese? Combining millennia of wisdom from native populations with the inherent fairness of communism, they have… :smack: Wow, that was a really, really good explanation. Not to be argumentative, but for the sake of clarity, do you think Socialism is worse than Capitalism? And if you do do you think it is only slightly worse or do you think it is significantly worse? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/46 "2015-04-25T07:32:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Wow, that was a really, really good explanation. > > Not to be argumentative, but for the sake of clarity, do you think Socialism is worse than Capitalism? And if you do do you think it is only slightly worse or do you think it is significantly worse? I think considering all the variants of socialism and capitalism, the former is worse (assuming by socialism you mean the nationalization of significant portions of the industry) given the presence of properly regulated social market/social democratic system. Also I find the anti-modernism of the OP quite amusing considering Marxism has always been quite pro-development. Stalin and Mao certainly were just as ruthless as the Robber Barons in pursuing industrialization-the only communist leader of note who was anti-modernist was Pol Pot and we know how that turned out… ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/47 "2015-04-25T08:23:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Also I find the anti-modernism of the OP quite amusing considering Marxism has always been quite pro-development. Would you happen to know which of his specific writings addressed this? > [@](#): > > Stalin and Mao certainly were just as ruthless as the Robber Barons in pursuing industrialization Can you give me some examples please? I would not deny for a second that Stalin and Mao were ruthless, I’m curious as to specifics and how it relates to industrialization. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/48 "2015-04-25T16:44:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Also I find the anti-modernism of the OP quite amusing considering Marxism has always been quite pro-development. Stalin and Mao certainly were just as ruthless as the Robber Barons in pursuing industrialization-the only communist leader of note who was anti-modernist was Pol Pot and we know how that turned out… Yeah, this. The connection between the rant in the OP and capitalism seems tenuous at best. Development of wilderness into something more useful to humanity dates back to the [Neolithic Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution), which featured slash and burn agriculture and artificial irrigation. Humans [have been driving species to extinction for at least 12,000 years.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction#Human_influence_on_extinction) In modern times, as has been alluded to, the environmental record of Communist regimes has been horrific, so environmental damage isn’t just a capitalist thing. Lastly, the mass settlement of the West was facilitated by the Homestead Acts. The government handing out free tracts of land to all comers seems, again, totally unrelated to capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/49 "2015-04-25T20:16:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yeah, this. The connection between the rant in the OP and capitalism seems tenuous at best. Development of wilderness into something more useful to humanity dates back to the [Neolithic Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution), which featured slash and burn agriculture and artificial irrigation. Humans [have been driving species to extinction for at least 12,000 years.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction#Human_influence_on_extinction) > > In modern times, as has been alluded to, the environmental record of Communist regimes has been horrific, so environmental damage isn’t just a capitalist thing. > > Lastly, the mass settlement of the West was facilitated by the Homestead Acts. The government handing out free tracts of land to all comers seems, again, totally unrelated to capitalism. Well, I still “endorse” the rant but since I seem to be the only person on the thread that does so, objectively I must admit you all are probably right… thanks for your response it was a good explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/50 "2015-04-25T20:25:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Can you give me some examples please? I would not deny for a second that Stalin and Mao were ruthless, I’m curious as to specifics and how it relates to industrialization. For Mao, Google the Great Leap Forward. It was all about industrializing quickly, and tens of millions died from famines. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/51 "2015-04-25T20:28:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > For Mao, Google the Great Leap Forward. It was all about industrializing quickly, and tens of millions died from famines. Ok, thanks ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/52 "2015-04-26T02:07:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Would you happen to know which of his specific writings addressed this? Well from the _Communist Manifesto_ [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm): > [@](#): > > The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature. and their 10 point program: > [@](#): > > 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. > 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. > 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. > 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. > 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. > 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. > \*\*7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. > 7. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. > 8. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. \*\* > 9. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429/53 "2015-04-27T00:22:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well from the _Communist Manifesto_ [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm): > > and their 10 point program: I was familiar with the first but not the second, thank you [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-too-exaggerated-of-is-it-perfectly-accurate-anti-capitalist-rant/718429.md?page=2)