# Is this true about a misplaced province for Bethsaida? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 11, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298 "2015-11-11T16:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/1 "2015-11-11T16:38:06Z")
When I viewed [this video on YouTube…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBj1X7amsvQ) Starting just before 3:50, the presenter makes the claims that: 1. Historically, John the apostle was born in Bethsaida. (And, much more importantly…) _**2. The individual \* who wrote John chapter 12, verse 21 \* placed Bethsaida in Galilee.**_ From [this source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethsaida): “It may be possible to identify this site with the village of Bethsaida in Lower Gaulanitis which the tetrarch Herod Philip II raised to the rank of a polis in the year 30/31, and renamed it Julias, in honor of Livia, the wife of Augustus. …” I was somewhat puzzled, because it seems the northern part of the so-called Holy Land back then was Galilee, all of it. Can the fine folks here clarify if placing it in Galilee is an error, and whether there is a serious controversy, as the rest of the section seems to suggest? (Whether it makes sense to insist that John the evangelist hailed from Bethsaida, “historically” is of secondary importance, but I would like comments on that as well.) * * * - I say the individual, and specify this verse (among others) because there is plenty of reason IMO, to see the Book of John as multi-authored. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/2 "2015-11-11T17:55:39Z")
John the Baptist is associated with Bethsaida? News to me. I don’t recall any connection, and a quick internet search turns up nothing except for Jesus getting news of John’s death when he (Jesus) is in Bethsaida. As for problems about the location of Bethsaida, have a look at the Wikipedia entry on Bethsaida: > [@](#): > > Were there two Bethsaidas?[edit] > > Many scholars maintain that all the New Testament references to Bethsaida apply to one place, namely, Bethsaida Julias. The arguments for and against this view may be summarized as follows: > Galilee ran right round the lake, including most of the level coastland on the east. Thus Gamala, on the eastern shore, was within the jurisdiction of Josephus, who commanded in Galilee (BJ, II, xx, 4). Judas of Gamala (Ant., XVIII, i, l) is also called Judas of Galilee (ibid., i, 6). If Gamala, far down the eastern shore of the sea, were in Galilee, a fortiori Bethsaida, a town which lay on the very edge of the Jordan, may be described as in Galilee. > But Josephus makes it plain that Gamala, while added to his jurisdiction, was not in Galilee, but in Gaulanitis (BJ, II, xx, 6). Even if Judas were born in Gamala, and so might properly be called a Gaulanite, he may, like others, have come to be known as belonging to the province in which his active life was spent. “Jesus of Nazareth” was born in Bethlehem. Then Josephus explicitly says that Bethsaida was in Lower Gaulanitis (BJ, II, ix, 1). Further, Luke places the country of the Gerasenes on the other side of the sea from Galilee (Luke 8:26) - antípera tḗs Galilaias (“over against Galilee”). > To go to the other side - eis tó péran (Mark 6:45) - does not of necessity imply passing from the east to the west coast of the lake, since Josephus uses the verb diaperaióō of a passage from Tiberias to Taricheae (Vita, 59). But 1.this involved a passage from a point on the west to a point on the south shore, “crossing over” two considerable bays; whereas if the boat started from any point in el-Baṭeiḥah, to which we seem to be limited by the “much grass,” and by the definition of the district as belonging to Bethsaida, to sail to et-Tell, it was a matter of coasting not more than a couple of miles, with no bay to cross. > 2.No case can be cited where the phrase eis to peran certainly means anything else than “to the other side.” > 3.Mark says that the boat started to go unto the other side to Bethsaida, while John, gives the direction “over the sea unto Capernaum” (John 6:17). The two towns were therefore practically in the same line. Now there is no question that Capernaum was on “the other side,” nor is there any suggestion that the boat was driven out of its course; and it is quite obvious that, sailing toward Capernaum, whether at Tell Ḥūm or at Khān Minyeh, it would never reach Bethsaida Julias. > > The words of Mark (Mark 6:45), it is suggested,[2] have been too strictly interpreted: as the Gospel was written probably at Rome, its author being a native, not of Galilee, but of Jerusalem. Want of precision on topographical points, therefore, need not surprise us. But as we have seen above, the “want of precision” must also be attributed to the writer of John 6:17. The agreement of these two favors the strict interpretation. Further, if the Gospel of Mark embodies the recollections of Peter, it would be difficult to find a more reliable authority for topographical details connected with the sea on which his fisher life was spent. > In support of the single-city theory it is further argued that 1.Jesus withdrew to Bethsaida as being in the jurisdiction of Philip, when he heard of the murder of John the Baptist by Herod Antipas, and would not have sought again the territories of the latter so soon after leaving them. > 2.Medieval works of travel notice only one Bethsaida. > 3.The east coast of the sea was definitely attached to Galilee in AD 84, and Ptolemy (c. 140) places Julias in Galilee. It is therefore significant that only the Fourth Gospel speaks of “Bethsaida of Galilee.” > 4.There could hardly have been two Bethsaidas so close together. > > But: 1.It is not said that Jesus came hither that he might leave the territory of Antipas for that of Philip; and in view of Mark 6:30, and Luke 9:10, the inference from Matthew 14:13 that he did so, is not warranted. > 2.The Bethsaida of medieval writers was evidently on the west of the Jordan River. If it lay on the east, it is inconceivable that none of them should have mentioned the river in this connection. > 3.If the 4th Gospel was not written until well into the 2nd century, then the apostle was not the author; but this is a very precarious assumption. John, writing after AD 84, would hardly have used the phrase “Bethsaida of Galilee” of a place only recently attached to that province, writing, as he was, at a distance from the scene, and recalling the former familiar conditions. > 4.In view of the frequent repetition of names in Palestine the nearness of the two Bethsaidas raises no difficulty. The abundance of fish at each place furnished a good reason for the recurrence of the name. > **[Bethsaida](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethsaida)** > > Bethsaida (/bɛθˈseɪ.ɪdə/ beth-SAY-id-ə; from Ancient Greek: Βηθσαϊδά, romanized: Bēthsaïdá; from Aramaic and Hebrew: בֵּית צַידָה, romanized: Bēṯ Ṣaiḏā, lit. 'House of the Fisherman' or 'House of the Hunter', from the Hebrew root צ-י-ד; Arabic: بيت صيدا, romanized: Bayt Ṣaydā), also known as Julias or Julia (Ancient Greek: Ἰουλία, romanized: Ioulía), is a place mentioned in the New Testament. Julias lay in an administrative district known as Gaulonitis. Historians have suggested that the Accordin... ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/3 "2015-11-11T18:33:33Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > John the Baptist is associated with Bethsaida? John the Apostle, not John the Baptist. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/4 "2015-11-11T19:00:08Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > John the Apostle, not John the Baptist. I’m still not on board. I’m aware of no tradition associating John the Apostle with Bethsaida. Wikipedia claims it as his birthplace in the entry on John, but hedges in the entry on Bethsaida. Some webpages assert Bethsaida as his city of birth, but none of them provides any basis for thinking this. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/5 "2015-11-11T19:20:01Z")
It’s an extrapolation from Mark 1:16-20 > [@](#): > > As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” At once they left their nets and followed him. > > When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, preparing their nets. Without delay he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him. and John 1:44: > [@](#): > > Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida So, since John says that Andrew and Peter were from Bethsaida, and since Mark says that Jesus met John and James the same place he met Andrew and Peter, it’s understood that John and James are from Bethsaida. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/6 "2015-11-11T19:34:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s an extrapolation from Mark 1:16-20 > > and John 1:44: > > So, since John says that Andrew and Peter were from Bethsaida, and since Mark says that Jesus met John and James the same place he met Andrew and Peter, it’s understood that John and James are from Bethsaida. Still a stretch. Like the Wikipedia article on Bethsaida, I’d be hedging my bets by not committing. It certainly doesn’t seem definite enough to base an argument on. Especially when combining accounts from two different evangelists, especially two known to be not in agreement on other things. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/7 "2015-11-11T20:19:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > John the Apostle, not John the Baptist. THANK YOU! I didn’t think it was necessary to distinguish the two. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-about-a-misplaced-province-for-bethsaida/737298/8 "2015-11-11T20:27:48Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > As for problems about the location of Bethsaida, have a look at the Wikipedia entry on Bethsaida: Let’s focus on the key point. Was the location given wrongly in John 12:21? It’s hard to tell from your quote of more of the article. What is your opinion? If John the apostle was Jewish and apparently living somewhere in Palestine, probably also born somewhere in Palestine, as opposed to a geographically outside convert, it seems odd that he, as “John the evangelist” would place Bethsaida wrongly. Maybe not as much as someone born there, or grew up there, or whose story starts as a resident there, but still…