# Is this true or just an Urban Legend? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547 "2006-07-21T22:33:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/21 "2006-07-22T06:53:20Z")
When I applied to the NSA there were questions like that on the form. There were even questions asking me if I had ever had sex with animals or smoked pot by myself. Seriously. They have some sort of psychological testing standard they hold you to it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/22 "2006-07-22T07:04:10Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] IIRC correctly, there were similar questions on applications for government jobs in the 1980s as well. [/QUOTE] I had to sign one of those McCarthy statements for a parttime job shoveling cow poop at the State Fair this summer. And they also are required to start a 401k plan for me. For working 2 weeks. Shoveling cow poop. I hate California beuracracy. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/23 "2006-07-22T07:13:59Z")
What’s the big deal? Wasn’t this country founded by overthrowing the government of the United States of America by force or violence? Hypocrites, the lot of them! > [@mks57](#): > > I think the point is that if you lie on the form, it makes it easier for the government to prosecute or deport you. Does the Fifth Amendment not apply to tourists? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/24 "2006-07-22T09:49:22Z")
[Here](http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2006-07-19/news/cityside.html) is a story about a Californian man who refused to sign such a statement. > [@](#): > > William Andrew Jackson, drummer for the Oakland punk-rock band Strung Up, has a patriotic name. Now he also has a patriotic conundrum. > > A few weeks ago, he spent three days tearing down an old set for the Center REP theater in Walnut Creek, which is owned by the city. During his first lunch break, Jackson’s boss handed over a packet of hiring papers to be returned the next day. The next day, the temp laborer handed one of them back un-inked: the oath of office all Walnut Creek employees must sign pledging to “support and defend” the United States and California constitutions “against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/25 "2006-07-22T09:58:27Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] You can see the second page of the current visa waiver form, filled out by thousands of people travelling to America every day, [here](http://206.241.31.142/ImageCache/cgov/content/travel/id_5fvisa/i94w_5fback_5fhires_2egif/v1/i94w_5fback_5fhires.gif). While there’s no questions about overthrowing America, it’s concievable that earlier bureaucrats used more specific questioning to establish a possilble ‘threat’ to America. [/QUOTE] And the best part of that form, that almost everyone fills in on the plane, is _“If you answered “Yes” to any of the above, please contact the American Embassy BEFORE you travel to the U.S. since you may be refused admission into the United States.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/26 "2006-07-22T11:14:40Z")
[QUOTE=shizaru] Think about it…if you’re a member of such an organization and you say “no”, and enlist, but later on are found to be lying, they can easily discharge you for false enlistment. [/QUOTE] Wait, they won’t discharge you for trying to overthrow the government, but they will for lying about it? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/27 "2006-07-22T12:43:31Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] IIRC correctly, there were similar questions on applications for government jobs in the 1980s as well. [/QUOTE] That question is still on federal applications today. I doubt it will be striken anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/28 "2006-07-22T13:09:15Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] What’s the big deal? Wasn’t this country founded by overthrowing the government of the United States of America by force or violence? [/QUOTE] Technically, it was the government of His Royal Majesty’s American colonies… and if I had to fill out a security clearance form in England, I would definitely get the interviewer’s assistance with that one, because I was definitely a member of the US Department of Defense. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/29 "2006-07-22T15:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Wait, they won’t discharge you for trying to overthrow the government, but they will for lying about it? [/QUOTE] Which is easier to prove? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/30 "2006-07-22T15:43:56Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] Which is easier to prove? [/QUOTE] Don’t you have to prove they wanted to overthrow the government \*\*before \*\* you can accuse them of lying about it? ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/31 "2006-07-22T16:14:25Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Don’t you have to prove they wanted to overthrow the government \*\*before \*\* you can accuse them of lying about it? [/QUOTE] Not if you ask them “Have you ever belonged to any of the organizations on this list?”. They asked me that question when I enlisted in the Army. It was a very long list. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/32 "2006-07-22T16:26:10Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] Not if you ask them “Have you ever belonged to any of the organizations on this list?”. They asked me that question when I enlisted in the Army. It was a very long list. [/QUOTE] So if I deny being a member of Al Qaeda, they don’t have to prove I am lying before they kick me out? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/33 "2006-07-22T18:09:09Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > Technically, it was the government of His Royal Majesty’s American colonies Which was also…the government of the United States of America. 😃 > [@Fear Itself](#): > > So if I deny being a member of Al Qaeda, they don’t have to prove I am lying before they kick me out? No. They have to prove you’re lying about being a member of the organization. They don’t have to prove you’re lying about wanting to overthrow the government, because that’s not the question they asked. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/34 "2006-07-22T18:12:46Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] No. They have to prove you’re lying about being a member of the organization. They don’t have to prove you’re lying about wanting to overthrow the government, because that’s not the question they asked. [/QUOTE] Which was my original point; if they are convinced I am Al Qaeda, isn’t that reason enough to show me the door (or worse)? Isn’t charging me with lying sort of anticlimactic? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/35 "2006-07-22T18:36:07Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Which was my original point; if they are convinced I am Al Qaeda, isn’t that reason enough to show me the door (or worse)? Isn’t charging me with lying sort of anticlimactic? [/QUOTE] And what legal basis do you think they have for excluding you, except for…the list of banned organizations they showed you, which you said you were not part of? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/36 "2006-07-22T18:54:44Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] And what legal basis do you think they have for excluding you, except for…the list of banned organizations they showed you, which you said you were not part of? [/QUOTE] They don’t need any legal basis for excluding you. My understanding is that even though my visa paperwork is in order, and I’m not on any no-fly lists, and don’t say anything stupid, its complete the discresion of the immigration offical whether I get in. If he has a “bad feeling” about me he can exclude me… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/37 "2006-07-22T19:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] And what legal basis do you think they have for excluding you, except for…the list of banned organizations they showed you, which you said you were not part of? [/QUOTE] They can legally ban me for being a member of a terrorist organization. Adding “and you lied about it” is gilding the lily. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/38 "2006-07-22T19:49:23Z")
In a related story, here in the Bay State (aka Massachusetts), when buying a firearm, one of the many questions on the form you fill out is “Are you a fugitive from justice?”. Again, this is probably done to make a criminal’s prosecution all the easier. (I’m sure glad they don’t ask “Have you ever torn the tag off of a mattress?”) :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/39 "2006-07-22T20:47:06Z")
Note the entry under 27 Mar 2001 at this site: [http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200001/ldhansrd/vo010327/text/10327-13.htm](http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200001/ldhansrd/vo010327/text/10327-13.htm) “I am reminded of the story of Gilbert Monkton. In the 1950s or 1960s he was sent on a mission to Washington. He had to fill in that very long immigration form the United States used to have. After the questions on age, date of birth, residence and so on, the last question was: do you intend in any way to take up arms against or threaten the security of the United States? He wrote, “Yes, sole purpose of visit”. He was arrested on arrival. That was a pity because he was there on the orders of the Foreign Office. It took a little explaining, but makes my point.” The story is retold by a member of the House of Lords, which makes it one of the more reliable cites I could find. Note also, [http://weblib.wl.dvgu.ru/?action=view&form[book]=oxfrd\_mq.gz](http://weblib.wl.dvgu.ru/?action=view&form%5Bbook%5D=oxfrd_mq.gz) " 8.16 Gilbert Harding =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ``` 1907-1960 Before he [Gilbert Harding] could go to New York he had to get a US visa at the American consulate in Toronto. He was called upon to fill in a long form with many questions, including "Is it your intention to overthrow the Government of the United States by force?" By the time Harding got to that one he was so irritated that he answered: "Sole purpose of visit." W. Reyburn Gilbert Harding (1978) ch. 2" ``` ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/40 "2006-07-22T21:45:06Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > They can legally ban me for being a member of a terrorist organization. Adding “and you lied about it” is gilding the lily. Did you actually read my post? Do you think it’s possible that “you lied about it” _is_ how they legally ban you for being a member of a terrorist organization? If they ask that question and then have the ability for kicking you out after finding out you are a member, they don’t need any other rules; they can ban you if you say yes (without having to prove you’re actually a member), and they can ban you if you say no and you actually are a member because you lied about being a member. Sounds like a more practical system (from the gov’s standpoint) to me than not asking the question at all and then hunting for evidence of membership; at least they may weed out a couple of dumb shits every decade or two who say yes, and at the very worst they spend just as much time and energy searching for actual evidence of membership, while padding your case with an extra charge. > [@griffin1977](#): > > They don’t need any legal basis for excluding you. My understanding is that even though my visa paperwork is in order, and I’m not on any no-fly lists, and don’t say anything stupid, its complete the discresion of the immigration offical whether I get in. If he has a “bad feeling” about me he can exclude me… I learned in the US armed services that it’s a bad idea to trust the face of a department of the federal government or anything s/he says. I wouldn’t be surprised if, like recruiters, whoever you’re talking to at INS/Customs/whatever else alternates between telling you what you want to hear to get you in, and telling you more bald-faced lies to scare you into acting right once you’re committed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547.md?page=3)