# Is this true or just an Urban Legend? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547 "2006-07-21T22:33:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/41 "2006-07-22T21:55:52Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Did you actually read my post? [/QUOTE] Yes. And I will never get that 30 seconds back. > [@](#): > > Do you think it’s possible that “you lied about it” _is_ how they legally ban you for being a member of a terrorist organization? No. > [@](#): > > …they can ban you if you say no and you actually are a member because you lied about being a member. This is the inane part of your logic. How would they know I lied about being a member of Al Qaeda? And if they find out that I am a member, why do they need additional cause to exclude me? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/42 "2006-07-22T21:58:07Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > This is the inane part of your logic. How would they know I lied about being a member of Al Qaeda? And if they find out that I am a member, why do they need additional cause to exclude me? Because maybe that’s the cause they have. I don’t know. I don’t know the law. I’m just putting forth that that’s a possibility as to why they ask you the question in the first place. Logically and morally they don’t need any more reason than that, but maybe they do legally. I wouldn’t know. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > No. Are you an immigration lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/43 "2006-07-22T22:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Are you an immigration lawyer? [/QUOTE] What difference would that make? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/44 "2006-07-22T22:08:50Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Logically and morally they don’t need any more reason than that, but maybe they do legally. [/QUOTE] By this logic, if I answered “Yes”, they would have no legal reason to exclude me. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/45 "2006-07-22T22:20:36Z")
No, presumably they would also be legally able to exclude you for saying “Yes”. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > What difference would that make? If you were, you might be saying “no” based on actual knowledge, rather than the desire to be right. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/46 "2006-07-22T22:38:04Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] No, presumably they would also be legally able to exclude you for saying “Yes”. [/QUOTE] Then why do they need to charge me with lying if I say “No”, since to know that I am lying requires them to know that I am a member of Al Qaeda, which you now say is grounds for exclusion all by itself? What more can they do to me by adding “…and you lied about it” ? Double-Secret Probation? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/47 "2006-07-22T22:39:13Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] If you were, you might be saying “no” based on actual knowledge, rather than the desire to be right. [/QUOTE] One ceases to desire what one already posesses. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/48 "2006-07-22T22:45:59Z")
In the course of applying for a data-entry job I learned that the US Government is hardcore about asking such questions. (Note: If you ever apply for a job with the government, be prepared to fill out lots and lots of paperwork. _LOTS_.) Anyway, I still have most of those forms in PDF format if anyone’s interested. For a really low-level, non-security-cleared job, they wanted the past five years addresses, five years employment, and references who could account for you at every job and every address. They also did a fingerprint check, required three forms of ID, and we got to answer fun questions such as “have you ever used illegal drugs”, “are you delinquent on any federal debt”, “have you ever been arrested for any reason”, and “do you want to overthrow the government?” They also actually sent out forms to every reference we listed, which for me led to a bit of hilarity. They also make you take an oath of office to protect and uphold the Constitution. They did not, to my great disappointment, ever ask me if I was a communist. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/49 "2006-07-22T23:16:11Z")
In the 1950s, my father had to sign one such form that asked if he or any member of his family for three prior generations had been a member of an organization dedicated to the overthrow of the United States. He answered yes. About six weeks later, he was visited by two FBI agents and invited to explain his answer. They went away muttering about his being a smartass when he explained that his grandfather had been a Brigadier General in the Confederate Army. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/50 "2006-07-23T03:44:12Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] In the 1950s, my father had to sign one such form that asked if he or any member of his family for three prior generations had been a member of an organization dedicated to the overthrow of the United States. He answered yes. About six weeks later, he was visited by two FBI agents and invited to explain his answer. They went away muttering about his being a smartass when he explained that his grandfather had been a Brigadier General in the Confederate Army. [/QUOTE] Great story, except virtually impossible that his grandfather was old enough to have been a soldier in the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/51 "2006-07-23T04:01:39Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Slant] Note the entry under 27 Mar 2001 at this site: > **[Lords Hansard text for 27 Mar 2001 (210327-13)](https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200001/ldhansrd/vo010327/text/10327-13.htm)** “I am reminded of the story of Gilbert Monkton. In the 1950s or 1960s he was sent on a mission to Washington. He had to fill in that very long immigration form the United States used to have. After the questions on age, date of birth, residence and so on, the last question was: do you intend in any way to take up arms against or threaten the security of the United States? He wrote, “Yes, sole purpose of visit”. He was arrested on arrival. That was a pity because he was there on the orders of the Foreign Office. It took a little explaining, but makes my point.” The story is retold by a member of the House of Lords, which makes it one of the more reliable cites I could find. [/quote] Note that the member couldn’t pin it down to closer than a 20 year period. And, he got the name wrong. It was Gilbert Harding, a humorist/writer, from your next cite. He might as well have said it was Gilbert Gotfried or Gilbert the Grape. Note also, [http://weblib.wl.dvgu.ru/?action=view&form[book]=oxfrd\_mq.gz](http://weblib.wl.dvgu.ru/?action=view&form%5Bbook%5D=oxfrd_mq.gz) " 8.16 Gilbert Harding =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ``` 1907-1960 Before he [Gilbert Harding] could go to New York he had to get a US visa at the American consulate in Toronto. He was called upon to fill in a long form with many questions, including "Is it your intention to overthrow the Government of the United States by force?" By the time Harding got to that one he was so irritated that he answered: "Sole purpose of visit." W. Reyburn Gilbert Harding (1978) ch. 2" ``` [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/52 "2006-07-23T04:40:41Z")
[QUOTE=diggleblop] When I applied to the NSA there were questions like that on the form. There were even questions asking me if I had ever had sex with animals or smoked pot by myself. Seriously. They have some sort of psychological testing standard they hold you to it seems. [/QUOTE] The other side of the NSA asking those questions is that if you _have_ and you aren’t willing to say so, you’re blackmailable, which is the absolute _last_ thing they want. You can kick puppies while shooting black tar heroin as long as nobody can hold it over your head. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/53 "2006-07-23T04:43:58Z")
Given that taking illegal drugs is enough to lose a federal job over, someone can hold your heroin habit over your head if you work for the NSA regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/54 "2006-07-23T04:54:54Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Given that taking illegal drugs is enough to lose a federal job over, someone can hold your heroin habit over your head if you work for the NSA regardless. [/QUOTE] psst. It’s called “hyperbole”. Okay, evidently literary license isn’t called for. In practice, you can _have had_ a severe drug habit without it automatically disqualifying you, though it’ll take a lot of doing for them to believe you’re not an addict if the drug was addictive. You can have questionable – even questionably legal – tastes, but if it doesn’t affect your ability to perform the job you just have to be open about it. My point is that the fact you smoked up or spread a little peanut butter for fido does not _in and of itself_ make you ineligible to be hired. What they’re looking for in a lot of those interviews is that you’ll let someone “out” you before you compromise the agency’s security. Oh, and the question that up until recently was right up there with bestiality (and might still be, textually): homosexuality. Back in the '60s you could be as gay as springtime as long as you weren’t blackmailable about it. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/55 "2006-07-23T04:58:51Z")
> [@Mathochist](#): > > In practice, you can have had a severe drug habit without it automatically disqualifying you, though it’ll take a lot of doing for them to believe you’re not an addict if the drug was addictive. IME in the armed services, you’re pretty well fucked if you admit to smoking pot more than three times. IIRC the FBI has a limit of 15 times of pot use in your life and local police limits are similar. Don’t know much about the NSA (who does? 😉 ) but it seems to me like logically it’d be pretty damn tough to get a security clearance after more than a couple dorm-room bongloads. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/56 "2006-07-23T06:58:52Z")
**samclem** , it’s not at all impossible what **Clothahump** said. In fact, a good friend of my family who was born in 1926 is the grandson of a Union veteran of the Civil War. His father was born in 1893, and his grandfather was born in 1834 (yes, he was a father at 58). And **Clothahump** was referring to the 1950s, when it was even more likely that a man could be the grandson of a Civil War veteran. The [last Union and Confederate veterans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_surviving_United_States_war_veterans) themselves died in the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/57 "2006-07-23T08:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Great story, except virtually impossible that his grandfather was old enough to have been a soldier in the Civil War. [/QUOTE] During the 50s? Why not? He himself could have been, say, 70 yo hence been born around 1880. So, not only it’s plausible that his grand-father could have fought during the civil war, but even his father could have. Apart from that, the questions on the US forms, not only for immigration, but even for mere tourism visas are world famous. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547/58 "2006-07-23T15:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=griffin1977] It always interested me what happened to people from former Eastern Block countries, alot of whom had to be members of the communist party, and whether they go greif at customs for answering honestly. [/QUOTE] There’s an [exemption from the bar](http://www.uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-10903/slb-29933/slb-30022?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0) if a naturalization applicant can prove that the membership was necessary for various reasons (and I believe the same exemptions apply to temporary stays in the U.S., though as a practical matter nobody cares anymore…can’t find the cite at the moment, because boy, do I miss having Westlaw access just for noodling around!). "TITLE 8 OF CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (8 CFR)/8 CFR PART 313 – MEMBERSHIP IN THE COMMUNIST PARTY OR ANY OTHER TOTALITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS/Sec. 313.3 Statutory exemptions. Sec. 313.3 Statutory exemptions. (a) General. An applicant shall bear the burden of establishing that classification in one of the categories listed under Sec. 313.2 is not a bar to naturalization. (b) Exemptions. Despite membership in or affiliation with an organization covered by Sec. 313.2, an applicant may be naturalized if the applicant establishes that such membership or affiliation is or was: (1) Involuntary; (2) Without awareness of the nature or the aims of the organization, and was discontinued if the applicant became aware of the nature or aims of the organization; (3) Terminated prior to the attainment of age sixteen by the applicant, or more than ten years prior to the filing of the application for naturalization; (4) By operation of law; or (5) Necessary for purposes of obtaining employment, food rations, or other essentials of living. (c) Awareness and participation. (1) Exemption applicable. The exemption under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be found to apply only to an applicant whose participation in the activities of an organization covered under Sec. 313.2 was minimal in nature, and who establishes that he or she was unaware of the nature of the organization while a member of the organization. (2) Exemptions inapplicable. The exemptions under paragraphs (b)(4) and (b)(5) of this section will not apply to any applicant who served as a functionary of an organization covered under Sec. 313.2, or who was aware of and believed in the organization’s doctrines. (d) Essentials of living. (1) Exemption applicable. The exemption under paragraph (b)(5) of this section may be found to apply only to an applicant who can demonstrate: (i) That membership in the covered organization was necessary to obtain the essentials of living like food, shelter, clothing, employment, and an education, which were routinely available to the rest of the population–for purposes of this exemption, higher education will qualify as an essential of living only if the applicant can establish the existence of special circumstances which convert the need for higher education into a need as basic as the need for food or employment: and, (ii) That he or she participated only to the minimal extent necessary to receive the essential of living. (2) Exemption inapplicable. The exemption under paragraph (b)(5) of this section will not be applicable to an applicant who became a member of an organization covered under Sec. 313.2 to receive certain benefits: (i) Without compulsion from the governing body of the relevant country; or (ii) Which did not qualify as essentials of living." My first job after college was in Soviet refugee resettlement, and while most of the people I worked with were not Communist Party members, plenty of them were members of [Komsomol,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomol) the youth wing. It didn’t stop anyone from gaining refugee status or eventual permanent residency/citizenship, that I’m aware of; most Soviets were members at one point or another. Komsomol membership was more ubiquitous than membership in any nonreligious organization I can think of, in the USSR or elsewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-true-or-just-an-urban-legend/365547.md?page=2)