# Is this use of 'penultimate' correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216 "2019-10-03T18:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/21 "2019-10-04T01:58:25Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I had a much-admired music professor in college[sup]\*[/sup] who liked to put short examples on the blackboard for the class to examine in detail. He referred to the last measure as the ultimate, the second-to-last, the penultimate, and the third, the ante-penultimate. Being the class smartass, I couldn’t avoid asking what measure came next in the sequence. > > His answer, “The first”. > > - Manus Sasonkin Serious answer: preantepenultimate. Then propreantepenultimate. Then, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/22 "2019-10-04T02:03:37Z")
“Secondarily” is fine. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/23 "2019-10-04T02:23:46Z")
Primarily, it is of ultimate importance that these products are safe, accurate, and effective. Secondarily, it is of penultimate importance that these that they be developed as quickly as reasonably practicable ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/24 "2019-10-04T02:30:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > […] or (in a growing misuse) an emphatic from of “ultimate”'s meaning “best/greatest.” Are you serious? I’ve never heard of that. Wow. It makes the “literal-ists” and the “loosers” look like English language experts!! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/25 "2019-10-04T02:37:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Serious answer: preantepenultimate. Then propreantepenultimate. Then, I don’t know. The professor only used 4-measure examples, so he had an out. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/26 "2019-10-04T02:37:31Z")
How about this: _These products are to be first and foremost, safe, accurate, and effective. Only when we have achieved this, will we work on developing them as quickly as reasonably practicable._ ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/27 "2019-10-04T02:40:29Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > That would be ‘here’ in your statement. And the antipenultimate word would be ‘there’, I think. But my geometry may be skewed. Wrapped-around. Sinking fast. Ouch. > > I think we’re torturing the language. Pass another firebrand. I can’t speak for anyone else but for me it’s not “torture” really. Yeah, I do some pretty rough stuff to her but it’s all consensual. English is a Submissive tease and loves to be Topped. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/28 "2019-10-04T02:40:32Z")
I’d also quibble over the idea that three things can all be first and foremost. So new suggestion: _Our first and foremost goal is that these products will be safe, accurate, and effective. Only when we have achieved this, will we work on developing them as quickly as reasonably practicable._ ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/29 "2019-10-04T02:43:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Serious answer: preantepenultimate. Then propreantepenultimate. Then, I don’t know. Plenipotentate? No? (propane-papermate?) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/30 "2019-10-04T02:47:29Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Are you serious? I’ve never heard of that. Wow. It makes the “literal-ists” and the “loosers” look like English language experts!! If you’ve never heard “penultimate” used to mean “THE BESTEST EVAR!!!” consider yourself lucky. (Or am I misunderstanding you? It’s not a common word, but three times out of four, that’s how I hear it being used.) [See here for example](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/what-does-penultimate-mean). > [@](#): > > Many people use ‘penultimate’ to mean “the very last” or “the very best.” They’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/31 "2019-10-04T02:54:41Z")
For whatever reason, [I remember this moment in the Seattle music documentary “Hype!”](https://youtu.be/C5AFs0RrGZI?t=2240) as the first time I heard “penultimate” being (mis)used in this way. I’m sure it’s been used that way for ages before that, but, for whatever reason, I clearly remember watching that movie and the misuse sticking out so much that I remember it now, 23 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/32 "2019-10-04T03:54:15Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Serious answer: preantepenultimate. Then propreantepenultimate. Then, I don’t know. Forepropreantepenultimate, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/33 "2019-10-04T12:26:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d also quibble over the idea that three things can all be first and foremost. Not to mention a fanatical devotion to the pope! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/34 "2019-10-04T12:40:46Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > That would be ‘here’ in your statement. And the antipenultimate word would be ‘there’, I think. But my geometry may be skewed. Wrapped-around. Sinking fast. Ouch. > > I think we’re torturing the language. Pass another firebrand. The antepenultimate word in that sentence is “antepenultimate.” > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Are you serious? I’ve never heard of that. Wow. It makes the “literal-ists” and the “loosers” look like English language experts!! > **[Definition of THE ULTIMATE IN](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the%20ultimate%20in)** > > the greatest or most extreme form or example of (something)… See the full definition ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/35 "2019-10-04T12:53:54Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Not to mention a fanatical devotion to the pope! 😉 Among our chief tactics are, such diverse elements as safety, accuracy, effectiveness, being developed as quickly as reasonably practicable, and nice, red uniforms. Regards, [Michaelangelo](https://www.montypython.net/scripts/JC-penultimatesupper.php) ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/36 "2019-10-04T13:24:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > For whatever reason, [I remember this moment in the Seattle music documentary “Hype!”](https://youtu.be/C5AFs0RrGZI?t=2240) as the first time I heard “penultimate” being (mis)used in this way. I’m sure it’s been used that way for ages before that, but, for whatever reason, I clearly remember watching that movie and the misuse sticking out so much that I remember it now, 23 years later. I graduated from college in 1989, and I can remember questioning one of my fraternity brothers on his use of “penultimate” to mean “really great” when I was a sophomore or junior. So it’s nothing all that new. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/37 "2019-10-04T14:05:18Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > I graduated from college in 1989, and I can remember questioning one of my fraternity brothers on his use of “penultimate” to mean “really great” when I was a sophomore or junior. So it’s nothing all that new. Yeah, it sounds like a word that should mean something else, so completely unsurprising. I know I’ve misused words like “non-plussed” and “bemused” (but for some reason not “disinterested”) for similar reasons: they sound like they should mean something else (though there is a 20th history of them being used to mean something else.) I remember the first time I used the word “non-plussed” in conversation to mean “unfazed” or “unperturbed” instead of “perplexed/confused” the person I was talking with stopping me and saying, “uh, that word doesn’t mean what you think it means.” And he was right, although the semantic shift had started somewhere in the early 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/38 "2019-10-04T14:19:17Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Penultimate means second to last, not secondary. For the next to last time, this is correct. :mad::smack: ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/39 "2019-10-04T17:26:36Z")
“Penultimate” [literally means “almost last”](https://www.etymonline.com/word/penultima?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_46164) from the Latin “penultima”, from “panae-” “almost” and “-ultima” “farthest, last”. The “pen-” prefix occurs in another English word: “peninsula”, which means “panae-” “almost” and “-insula” “island.” A peninsula is an almost-island. So using “penultimate” as an intensified “ultimate” is literally wrong. However, since even “literally” isn’t used literally any more, this abuse of “penultimate” will probably become accepted English before long. Because correctness of usage and meaning are a matter of mob rule nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/40 "2019-10-04T18:16:14Z")
I will never accept “penultimate” as meaning “the best” unless the thing being described is, in fact, a pen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216.md?page=3)