# Is this use of 'penultimate' correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216 "2019-10-03T18:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/41 "2019-10-04T18:49:17Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Because correctness of usage and meaning are a matter of mob rule nowadays. While the misuse of “penultimate” does stick in my craw, usage and meaning being a matter of “mob rule” is historically how language has been. Nothing “nowadays” about it. But that’s a discussion that’s been hashed out in literally about seventy billion SD threads… ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/42 "2019-10-04T19:09:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > while the misuse of “penultimate” does stick in my craw, usage and meaning being a matter of “mob rule” is historically how language has been. Nothing “nowadays” about it. But that’s a discussion that’s been hashed out in literally about seventy billion sd threads… iswydt ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/43 "2019-10-05T00:07:22Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As I understand it penultimate doesn’t mean “second best” or even “second from the start”, it means “second from the _end_”. “The ultimate weapon” doesn’t actually mean the _best_ weapon, it means the _last_ weapon - the one that once you use it, there will be no more fighting at all. > > So when you reach the penultimate item on the list of things to deal with you’ve almost finished fixing everything and are pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel. I disagree. It’s the ultimate weapon because it’s at the (top) end of the quality meter. There’s nothing beyond it. It’s the edge, the limit, the stopping point, the terminal node on the chain of weapon quality. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/44 "2019-10-05T00:15:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Among our chief tactics are, such diverse elements as safety, accuracy, effectiveness, being developed as quickly as reasonably practicable, and nice, red uniforms. > > Regards, > [Michaelangelo](https://www.montypython.net/scripts/JC-penultimatesupper.php) All right, it’s the soft cushions for you then. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/45 "2019-10-05T00:20:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As I understand it penultimate doesn’t mean “second best” or even “second from the start”, it means “second from the _end_”. “The ultimate weapon” doesn’t actually mean the _best_ weapon, it means the _last_ weapon - the one that once you use it, there will be no more fighting at all. > > So when you reach the penultimate item on the list of things to deal with you’ve almost finished fixing everything and are pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel. I can accept this usage as a valid metaphor. If I describe the Holocaust as the ultimate war crime, I’m not saying it was the last war crime to be committed chronologically. I’m saying that if you ranked war crimes from least terrible to most terrible, the Holocaust would be the most terrible one and would therefore be the last one on the list. Which would make it the ultimate war crime on my metaphorical list. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/46 "2019-10-05T13:36:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Forepropreantepenultimate, of course. And then there’s supraforepropreantepenultimate, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/47 "2019-10-05T13:52:41Z")
I’m settling on… Our first and foremost goal is for these products to be safe, accurate, and effective. Secondarily, we will develop them as quickly as possible. That might be the ultimate phrasing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steven\_Maven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steven_maven/32/3272_2.png) [@Steven\_Maven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steven_Maven)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/48 "2019-10-05T16:29:48Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > I am an engineer, not a writer, and yet I find myself responsible for writing an SOP. This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/49 "2019-10-05T17:08:23Z")
> [@Steven\_Maven](#): > > This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff. Yes I may need professional help. But not with just writing. 🙂 Thanks, but actually we’re a small company and we don’t have any professional writers. We contract out for that. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/50 "2019-10-05T18:53:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As I understand it penultimate doesn’t mean “second best” or even “second from the start”, it means “second from the _end_”. “The ultimate weapon” doesn’t actually mean the _best_ weapon, it means the _last_ weapon - the one that once you use it, there will be no more fighting at all. > > So when you reach the penultimate item on the list of things to deal with you’ve almo;;t finished fixing everything and are pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I disagree. It’s the ultimate weapon because it’s at the (top) end of the quality meter. There’s nothing beyond it. It’s the edge, the limit, the stopping point, the terminal node on the chain of weapon quality. ‘Ultimate’ has come to also mean ‘best’ for the same reason that ‘pinnacle’ has - insofar as development of any art or science is seen as a journey of improvement, the ‘ultimate’ product of any discipline is implied to be the best possible product - no further progress in improvement is possible - the best has been achieved. So ultimate does mean last, but also can mean best. Penultimate does not seem to have acquired the meaning ‘second best’ however. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/51 "2019-10-05T19:39:24Z")
> [@Steven\_Maven](#): > > This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff. Ever since Microsoft Word, engineers don’t need tech writers anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/52 "2019-10-06T13:18:03Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Ever since Microsoft Word, engineers don’t need tech writers anymore. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/53 "2019-10-06T13:25:05Z")
If you don’t do what I want now I’m going to threaten you one more time. ^^ Is that a penultimatum? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/54 "2019-10-06T19:42:56Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Why is that? It was sarcastic. Someone figured that now that engineers had a tool to write their own documents, it was no longer necessary to hire people who actually knew how to write. I have been in the software industry for 40 years and the documentation I’ve seen engineers write in the last 30 is mostly shit. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/55 "2019-10-06T20:24:56Z")
Has anyone got a link to an example in the wild of someone using penultimate where they mean ‘better than ultimate’? I’ve heard of it, and I think I’ve probably encountered it, but I can’t think of a specific case. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/56 "2019-10-07T04:12:22Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > It was sarcastic. Someone figured that now that engineers had a tool to write their own documents, it was no longer necessary to hire people who actually knew how to write. I have been in the software industry for 40 years and the documentation I’ve seen engineers write in the last 30 is mostly shit. OK, and generally I agree about what engineers typically write. I think the docs I’ve written are pretty good, and I try to write well. I just don’t enjoy it. And I’ve never used penultimate before, and I never will. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/57 "2019-10-07T04:32:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Has anyone got a link to an example in the wild of someone using penultimate where they mean ‘better than ultimate’? > > I’ve heard of it, and I think I’ve probably encountered it, but I can’t think of a specific case. Yes. Post #31 in this thread. Youtube link from 1996, and post (and following posts) describing how this was the first time I noticed it. ETA: [This is the link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5AFs0RrGZI&feature=youtu.be&t=2240) again. I commented that it was the first time I noticed but I’m pretty confident it’s been misused for some time before then. At least one reply has indicated that that supposition is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/58 "2019-10-07T04:53:27Z")
> [@Steven\_Maven](#): > > This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff. You called? Do not use big words or less common words, such as penultimate or practicable. The products must be safe, accurate, and effective. Development should be rapid without sacrificing quality. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/59 "2019-10-07T07:56:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yes. Post #31 in this thread. Youtube link from 1996, and post (and following posts) describing how this was the first time I noticed it. > > ETA: [This is the link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5AFs0RrGZI&feature=youtu.be&t=2240) again. I commented that it was the first time I noticed but I’m pretty confident it’s been misused for some time before then. At least one reply has indicated that that supposition is the case. Thanks - sorry, I missed that upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216/60 "2019-10-07T14:43:27Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > You called? > Do not use big words or less common words, such as penultimate or practicable. > > The products must be safe, accurate, and effective. Development should be rapid without sacrificing quality. Thank you — I like it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-use-of-penultimate-correct/841216.md?page=4)