# Is this war crime ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472 "2006-08-20T18:42:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/1 "2006-08-20T18:42:37Z")
Video from Iraq 3 insurgents are killed by US helicopter. The last one was hurt and then blown to pieces [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q32UbLYoFqg) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/2 "2006-08-20T18:51:58Z")
I can’t say whether it’s a war crime or not (are those .50cal or 20mm rounds? I believe the former is ok for personnel, the latter is not), but I saw that video in early 2002 so it is not from Iraq, it’s from Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/3 "2006-08-20T18:56:21Z")
I’ve seen this video before…I think CISCO is right, it was from Afghanistan. Anyway, why do you THINK its a ‘war crime’? Could you elaborate on just what about it you think constitutes a war crime by whatever definition of that you wish to use? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/4 "2006-08-20T19:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] (are those .50cal or 20mm rounds? I believe the former is ok for personnel, the latter is not) [/QUOTE] There’s been various versions of this urban legend floating around for some time – often folks cite the Geneva Conventions as prohibiting certain caliber arms being used against personnel – but there’s no such prohibition. I will echo again the question of why this incident might be considered a war crime. If possible, provide a mention of the source of the alleged law of war that is supposedly being violated. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/5 "2006-08-20T22:51:15Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] There’s been various versions of this urban legend floating around for some time – often folks cite the Geneva Conventions as prohibiting certain caliber arms being used against personnel – but there’s no such prohibition. [/QUOTE] I was told this “urban legend” by a group of US Marines on board a US Navy ship at sea (USS Peleliu Feb. 2002 last leg of westpac from Pearl Harbor, HI to Camp Pendelton, CA) right before they gave me a dead 20mm round as a souvenir. So if it is an urban legend it’s pretty deeply rooted, even within our own military. I also seem to recall sites from the GC posted on this very board to back it up (but I could be misremembering that.) Either way, I’d like to see a definitive cite. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/6 "2006-08-20T23:14:27Z")
I find it incredibly hard to believe that it is a crime to kill someone with one type of shell but not another…and that this has to do with the size of the shell in question. I’d love to see a cite on that myself. A quick look by me at the GC didn’t turn up anything of the kind. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/7 "2006-08-20T23:19:42Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] I also seem to recall sites from the GC posted on this very board to back it up (but I could be misremembering that.) Either way, I’d like to see a definitive cite. [/QUOTE] Here’s a good discussion, albeit on a blog: [Link.](http://home.blarg.net/~minsq/NCArchive/00000210.htm) There’s tons more debunking to be found on the Internets. Bottom line: there’s nothing at all in the GC about banning particular arms. There are various treaties that ban the use of dumdum bullets, wounding weapons, and fragmentation arms that can’t be discovered on xrays, but nothing about “such and such caliber can only be used on equipment.” It just isn’t there. You’ll notice that people who make such claims can never produce a citation. The threads on this in GQ that I recall came up with the same conclusions, setting aside “I heard it from..” comments. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=133414&highlight=caliber+personnel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=133414&highlight=caliber+personnel) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/8 "2006-08-20T23:26:36Z")
As another reference, here is a link to [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention) on the GC. This is where I’ve been casually looking for anything on this. THus far I’ve seen absolutely nothing even related. Just for reference, here are the various GC’s and a brief blurb about what they are about. They are linked to further info in the Wiki cite: > [@](#): > > ``` > * First Geneva Convention "for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field" (first adopted in 1864, last revision in 1949) > * Second Geneva Convention "for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea" (first adopted in 1949, successor of the 1907 Hague Convention X) > * Third Geneva Convention "relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War" (first adopted in 1929, last revision in 1949) > * Fourth Geneva Convention "relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War" (first adopted in 1949, based on parts of the 1907 Hague Convention IV) > > ``` There is a link on War Crimes in there as well…but again, I could find nothing on proscribed bullet sizes for use against personnel. On the surface of it, it would kind of be ridiculous if such a rule/law DID exist. -XT ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/9 "2006-08-28T15:32:20Z")
I believe the basis for this belief is the [St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Petersburg_Declaration_of_1868) where it is statet that no explosive projectile with a weight of under 400 grams, or to use inflammable substances in projectiles meant for anti-personell use. Under this treaty 20mm high explosive rounds, as well as [.50 Caliber multi purpose rounds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk211) would be banned from use against people. Therefore one could argue that using the 20mm ammunition against the people on the ground was a “war crime”, but seeing as the US never signed the treaty these rules doesnt apply to them. ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/10 "2006-08-28T15:42:10Z")
Just to add some info - when I did my service with the Norwegian Army we were trained to abide by the rules regarding the Multi Purpose rounds. We could not use them against infantry unless it was a sizeable formation, that is 8-10 men packed together or more. They were really meant for use against vehicles. This was because the St. petersburg Declaration(of which Norway IS a signaturer(sp?)) limitation on explosives and inflammables (both of which the Multi Purpose round contains) against personell. I would assume 20 mm would be subject to the same rules, altough I never operated a weapon system with such high caliber rounds. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/11 "2006-08-28T17:24:59Z")
I’d be interested in a lot more information about exactly where it was, what happened prior to what we saw on the video, what platform the gun was mounted on – was it really a helicopter? If so, why did the guys on the ground keep screwing around? Why not just get the hell out of there? I had a sense, watching the video, that they were unaware they were being watched. Also, what criteria the Americans were using for the decision to fire. The item dropped in the field appeared to have the profile of an RPG, so at least one weapon was seen. What happened afterward? Did ground troops verify the kills? One question that didn’t come to my mind was whether it was a crime. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-war-crime/369472/12 "2006-08-28T19:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] I was told this “urban legend” by a group of US Marines on board a US Navy ship at sea (USS Peleliu Feb. 2002 last leg of westpac from Pearl Harbor, HI to Camp Pendelton, CA) right before they gave me a dead 20mm round as a souvenir. So if it is an urban legend it’s pretty deeply rooted, even within our own military. I also seem to recall sites from the GC posted on this very board to back it up (but I could be misremembering that.) Either way, I’d like to see a definitive cite. [/QUOTE] Other have already provided excellent cites and explanations. To add,though, it is very, very deeply rooted in the armed services to be sure; I’ve heard Canadian soldiers make the same claim. My understanding is that this urban myth is pervasive throughout the armed forces of the Western world.