# Is this Wisconsin militia plan for poll watching legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 23, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358 "2014-09-23T18:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/21 "2014-09-24T20:04:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m more worried about the plank in the Republicans’ eye than the speck in the Democrats’ eye. I haven’t seen any stories about actual voters intimidated by they alleged “New Black Panthers” but there were tens of thousands kept from voting by voter ID laws, inequitable distribution of voting machines, flyers left in Democratic areas telling Democrats they are to vote on Wednesdays, telling people that they’ll be arrested if they have any outstanding warrants, etc. I certainly hope you share my disgust for all of these tactics. Most of them. I want everyone who is allowed to vote to feel they can vote without intimidation. I want no one who is not allowed to vote to cast even one ballot, thereby negating the vote of a legal voter. Can we agree on that much? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/22 "2014-09-24T20:20:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Most of them. I want everyone who is allowed to vote to feel they can vote without intimidation. I want no one who is not allowed to vote to cast even one ballot, thereby negating the vote of a legal voter. > > Can we agree on that much? “Negating” a vote? That’s a funny way to look at it – like real Americans vote this way, and non-real Americans vote _this_ way. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/23 "2014-09-24T21:25:09Z")
I think we can also agree that none of us want unicorns stampeding through the polling places and goring voters _regardless_ of their political persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/24 "2014-09-24T21:41:59Z")
I actually would like to see a unicorn stampede. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/25 "2014-09-25T00:30:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How about you think about what I said a bit more. …Naw, too obvious. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/26 "2014-09-25T00:44:06Z")
> [@Manduck](#): > > I actually would like to see a unicorn stampede. And goring voters? Skewered, impaled like civic shish-ka-bob, is that what you want, you bloodthirsty deev? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/27 "2014-09-25T01:35:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > “Negating” a vote? That’s a funny way to look at it – like real Americans vote this way, and non-real Americans vote _this_ way. What?!! If voter A is a legal voter and voter B is an illegal voter, and they vote for opposing candidates, voter B negates the vote of voter A unnecessarily and unfairly. What are you talking about with “real Americans” and “non-real Americans”? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/28 "2014-09-25T04:15:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If you’re not even allowed to carry a **sign** within a certain distance of the polls, how can you be allowed to carry a **gun?!** It depends. There is no law in Wisconsin that outlaws carrying weapons on or near a polling place, banks, or churches. However: around here there are a lot of polling places located in schools. It is a **felony** to carry a firearm in a school or on school property. The law doesn’t even make any exception for CCL holders or for off duty police officers. The law in Wisconsin only exempts on duty officers acting in official capacity. And this law is enforced pretty strictly. So if these clowns take a firearm on school property they’ll quickly find themselves up to their necks in shit. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/29 "2014-09-25T04:45:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And goring voters? Skewered, impaled like civic shish-ka-bob, is that what you want, you bloodthirsty deev? Everybody likes shishkabob! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/30 "2014-09-25T11:31:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Most of them. I want everyone who is allowed to vote to feel they can vote without intimidation. I want no one who is not allowed to vote to cast even one ballot, thereby negating the vote of a legal voter. > > Can we agree on that much? Nope. Because for every illegal vote that you want to suppress, you’re going to wind up, intentionally or not, suppressing tens of thousands of legal voters. This vote suppression is the true intent of the voter ID laws, whether or not their backers admit to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/31 "2014-09-25T11:56:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What?!! If voter A is a legal voter and voter B is an illegal voter, and they vote for opposing candidates, voter B negates the vote of voter A unnecessarily and unfairly. > > What are you talking about with “real Americans” and “non-real Americans”? What!!! Nothing is negated. Both votes - both the large numbers of legal and the tiny numbers of illegal votes - would be counted. The idea that the rare illegal vote cancels out something - either literally or metaphorically - makes as much sense as saying that every same sex marriage negates one traditional marriage. No, it doesn’t. One has nothing to do with the other. I’m against voter fraud, but one can’t simply invent reasons to exaggerate why it is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/32 "2014-09-25T12:39:38Z")
I’m fascinated by some people’s continued belief in an imaginary horde of nonqualified voters changing election results, and in that it’s worth going to any extreme to prevent even one such theoretical vote. But of course it’s just their new mythology in order to justify vote suppression after they had all sorts of prior exclusion methods taken away from them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/33 "2014-09-25T13:06:58Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I’m fascinated by some people’s continued belief in an imaginary horde of nonqualified voters changing election results, and in that it’s worth going to any extreme to prevent even one such theoretical vote. But of course it’s just their new mythology in order to justify vote suppression after they had all sorts of prior exclusion methods taken away from them. Some people seriously can’t imagine that the other side might actually legitimately win elections. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/34 "2014-09-25T13:18:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What!!! Nothing is negated. Both votes - both the large numbers of legal and the tiny numbers of illegal votes - would be counted. The idea that the rare illegal vote cancels out something - either literally or metaphorically - makes as much sense as saying that every same sex marriage negates one traditional marriage. No, it doesn’t. One has nothing to do with the other. > > I’m against voter fraud, but one can’t simply invent reasons to exaggerate why it is wrong. You need to review the exchange. But for you to claim that your legal vote for Candidate A is not, in essence, negated by my illegal vote for Candidate B is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/35 "2014-09-25T13:20:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You need to review the exchange. But for you to claim that your legal vote for Candidate A is not, in essence, negated by my illegal vote for Candidate B is ridiculous. How? If there are 5 illegal votes in a given election, and 500,000 legal votes, which votes are cancelled out? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/36 "2014-09-25T13:50:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How? If there are 5 illegal votes in a given election, and 500,000 legal votes, which votes are cancelled out? 5 of them. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/37 "2014-09-25T13:51:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > 5 of them. You’re assuming, of course, that all 5 “illegal” votes are for the same candidate. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/38 "2014-09-25T14:01:28Z")
Oops. Hit return inadvertently and then ran out of time. as I was saying… 5 of them. Does it affect the outcome? Of course not. But lets say there are 251,000 votes for A and 249,000 votes for B. And lets say all 5 of those illegal votes were cast for candidate A. Clearly, B _should_ have won. We have voting rules for a reason. They should be enforced so that only those eligible to vote do vote. Like they are in just about every other country. A position counter to this is utterly baffling. I agree that we don’t want to inadvertently prevent a legally eligible voter from voting, and I think we can do both. But let’s not turn this thread into one about voter fraud. There’s already a nice long thread about that. The thrust of this thread is voter intimidation, which I condemn in the instance cited in the OP, just as with the incident with the New Black Panthers. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/39 "2014-09-25T14:01:36Z")
5 of them? I see what Magellan is saying, in that all sets of opposed votes cancel each other. In other words, if I support candidate A and oh suppot candidate B, the result is going to be the same if both of us vote as if brother of us did. Its the same principal behind legislative pairing. So in that sense, every fraudulant vote penalizes legitimate voters, because it faces a candidate votes he shouldn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358/40 "2014-09-25T14:51:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And goring voters? Skewered, impaled like civic shish-ka-bob, is that what you want, you bloodthirsty deev? Man, you could do a running-of-the-unicorns thing that would make people forget all about Pamplona! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wisconsin-militia-plan-for-poll-watching-legal/699358.md?page=3)