# Is this Wong or is it White? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535 "2002-04-19T15:42:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/61 "2002-04-20T15:06:49Z")
The slogan of the Washington Post is “If you don’t get it, you don’t get it” ---
**Author:** ![ignatzmouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b2d939/32.png) [@ignatzmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ignatzmouse)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/62 "2002-04-20T15:12:19Z")
> [@](#): > > “If you don’t get it, you don’t get it” I’m just confused about what elements of the shirts are supposed to be funny and why they are funny. I’m sorry if I’m not as bright as you, but I need some help. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/63 "2002-04-20T15:20:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > Having looked at the shirts close up, I just have to say that these sensitive souls had better steer clear of Hong Kong. You’ll find Chinese people there selling far more ridiculous stuff in the gift shops. As a resident of Hong Kong, I must declare that I have seen nothing that comes close to demean a minority group. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/64 "2002-04-20T15:37:59Z")
Some rednecks are having problems understanding why a minority group is outraged by such racist depictions. That’s fine. Not everybody can be expected to be cosmopolitan and civilised. Not everybody know the history of the Chinese in the US in the last couple of years. Not everybody had suffered discrimination in a systemetic way. But why are these very same people so upset when Palestinian children alledgedly cheered upon the news of 911? If these people want to be insensitive sods, so be it. But they have no right to be upset over other people’s insensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/65 "2002-04-20T16:25:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tsubaki \* > Can someone PLEASE give me some examples of white caricatures/stereotypes which are offensive? Because I can’t come up with any. > > Uncle Sam is a caricature of a white AMERICAN, not a white. I don’t think Uncle Sam is a caricature at all. I think he’s just a cartoon. He’s no more of a caricature to me than Rosie the Riveter, another cartoon. Caricatures are, in my mind, intended to be funny and offensive. Political caricatures can be seering. Uncle Sam and Rosie are supposed to be inspiring, not offensive. And for the record, I find the shirts extremely offensive, and if one of my students wears one, I’ll send him home… Just like the day one of my students told a Hmong student in class to go back to China. She’s fecking Hmong, you dumbass! ---
**Author:** ![Skippman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skippman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skippman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/66 "2002-04-20T17:34:00Z")
Speaking as a first generation German in the US I have to say I’ve seen stereo-typing of my own ancestors. My grandfather fought for the Germans in WWII. When people find that out they immediatly jump to the conclusion that he must have been a Nazi. :eek: No one stops to think that maybe he was drafted by the German government. But such is the typical short sighted views of Americans. I’m proud to be an American. **One of the greatest things we have is the freadom to be wrong!** That being said I whole-heartedly respect the Asians. I’m facinated by thier history and culture, somthing the US is lacking, IMHO. I’ve always found Asian women very attractive and am dating one now. I respect the discipline they exibit by and large academically. I wish we in the US had that determination. That being said, my girlfriend (Japanese) actually laughed when she saw the shirts. She thought they were great. I personally love how every German you see in the movies is a hard A$$ Nazi wanna-be or a David Hasselhoff fanatic. Stereo types can be funny when not used to be racist. When my girlfriendand I went out on our first date the first thing we did was make fun of each others stereo types. That was a great ice breaker. She was impressed with how much I new about Asian culture and I was supprised with how little she new about German culture. German and Asian cultures are pretty similar in a lot of ways. 1.) Both respect dicipline. 2.) Both stress academic success. 3.) Both believe strongly in family name and honor. 4.) Both belive in being self sufficent. So what people look diffrent. It’s just a joke. Perhaps you all missed the Becks comercial about the legendary German sense of humor, or lack there of. I about wet myself I was laughing so hard. My Grandpa almost had a heart attack he was laughing so hard. Guess I really have no point other than we are so diffrent we’re ALL the same. We’re human, not Asian or German, or Mexican. When we can realize this, humanity will have made a great evolution as a species. ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/67 "2002-04-20T17:51:14Z")
**sailor** : Be careful! Don’t hurt yourself while you backpedal. > [@](#): > > Exactly my point. Let an ethnic group be offended if they wish. Let the others not _have_ to understand or share _why_ they are offended. I am sorry but I do not consider it my first duty in life to bend over backwards trying to understand and share the insecurities of every person or group out there. They why start the damn thread. You have stated multiple times that anytime someone gets offended, it’s indicative of something wrong with that person. You obviously had no intention of arguing whether it was racist or not. > [@](#): > > Not to mention I do not think the protesters speak for all or even a majority of Asians. Who appointed them? Thanks for painting yourself into a corner. Obviously you are smart enough to know that no one can speak for any group that big. So why don’t you just say what you mean. No race should be allowed to protest until they have universal consensus and they should only be led by an appointed leader. Unless you don’t want racial protesters, don’t bring this point up again. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/68 "2002-04-20T18:05:58Z")
You better believe that if this country was almost all-Asian instead of almost all-white and a company decided to put a caricature of white people (lice-infested, pointy-nose-having, no-lip-having pale faces) then you’d see white people protesting in the street. It wouldn’t matter if white people had suffered no discrimination or oppression; it would still be offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/69 "2002-04-20T18:09:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > \*\* > > As a resident of Hong Kong, I must declare that I have seen nothing that comes close to demean a minority group. \*\* Ladies and gentlemen . . . I give you [Hong Kong’s Favorite Toothpaste!](http://web.wt.net/~toy/Images/Antiques-Uniques/U001.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![SouprChckn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@SouprChckn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouprChckn)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/70 "2002-04-20T19:00:27Z")
In reference to that toothpaste thing, I don’t think they’ve made that toothpaste in a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/71 "2002-04-20T19:15:14Z")
In the interest of full disclosure: I’m white. Very pale white. As for the shirts; I don’t find them funny & can see why some Asian people might get really ticked off about them. If I were Asian, however, I don’t think I’d have the energy to protest them. As **headshok** said, it’s just another stupid thing in a long line. Apparently some Asian folks find the shirts humorous; good for them. It ain’t my place to tell them what they ought to find funny. Racial/ethnic humor is very interesting. I’ve found that members of a group are “allowed” by other members of the group to use self-stereotyping as humor, but outsiders had better not use those same stereotypes. For example, I sometimes joke around with my disabled friends; “You’re such a f–king cripple!”. If an able-bodied person, however, were to make such a comment, I’d be pretty pissed because I wouldn’t take it as a joke. It’s about context. That reasoning, I think, is why some Asian folks are annoyed about the Abercrombie & Fitch-produced shirts. As for the “…Hong Kong’s favorite toothpaste” comment; I assume that’s s’posed to be humorous. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/72 "2002-04-20T19:18:27Z")
The tootpaste company changed the name of the toothpaste to Darlie. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/73 "2002-04-20T19:21:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cosmopolitan \* > As for the “…Hong Kong’s favorite toothpaste” comment; I assume that’s s’posed to be humorous. No more humorous than the assertion that one can’t find anything in Hong Kong that demeans any minority group. BTW, the company changed the name about ten years ago, due to pressure from outside Hong Kong, and in Chinese its name still translates to “Black Man Toothpaste”. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/74 "2002-04-20T22:46:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > \*\* > > As a resident of Hong Kong, I must declare that I have seen nothing that comes close to demean a minority group. \*\* BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Suspecting you don’t live in Hong Kong, and for certain you are not Indian, Philipina. If you want to find an example of racism in Hong Kong, just take the word _ **gweilo** _, which more often than not is the word used for foreigners. It means “foreign devil”, which in itself is not so bad. However, the term “devil” in Cantonese/Mandarin _always_ has a negative connotation. Yes, I find the term offensive, no, I don’t get my panties in a twist about it. I do however point out to my Chinese friends that it is not a good word. To be honest, I get more irritated when I hear some English using “septic” as the height of piss-taking around clueless Americans. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/75 "2002-04-20T22:57:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\*So have a laugh, and if you want to get even, call me a mick or a kraut or a redneck. > > Just smile when you say that. \*\* Or else **what**? I must have missed your reply, Pudd’ntane. What’s your point: I can call you a Mick as long as I smile, you can make fun of Asians as long as you smile? ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/76 "2002-04-20T23:09:32Z")
> [@](#): > > **ON THE OTHER HAND, cazzle brings up a very strong counterpoint. If the “two wongs” thing really was an anti-Asian political slogan in Australia, then I could definitely see how that particular shirt would touch a real raw nerve among ordinary people. But how many protestors in the US have this bit of Australian history in mind when they object to the shirts?** So if a person is ignorant of the origin of the phrase, it ceases to be a racist catchphrase? How would we feel about this if the situation were reversed, even if the people wearing the shirt didn’t understand the meaning of the phrase? ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/77 "2002-04-20T23:21:53Z")
Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly > [@](#): > > BTW, the company changed the name about ten years ago, due to pressure from outside Hong Kong, and in Chinese its name still translates to “Black Man Toothpaste”. When I looked at the site from when you got the pic, I discovered it listed under “Antiques & Uniques”. Hence, it seemed to me that the product shown isn’t currently on the market, nor has it been for quite some time. Also, I didn’t notice any Chinese characters, which would indicate to me that the product was being marketed in an area in which many people spoke a Chinese dialect. I only saw words written in English. Therefore, I have a couple questions: A) Are you purporting that this picture is of a recently/currently marketed product? 'As I said, it’s my impression, after seeing the thing pictured on a site that sells “vintage” & “antique” toys & "collectibles, that the product shown hasn’t been around for a while. Perhaps I’m incorrect. B) Do you have some sort of cite in regard to the “name change” & claim that the current name “translates” to “black man’s toothpaste”? What is the current name? ---
**Author:** ![Mudshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mudshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mudshark)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/78 "2002-04-20T23:25:34Z")
All I can say is good. I hate Abercrombie & Fitch, even though the innuendo on their shirts is some of the funniest I have seen. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/79 "2002-04-20T23:47:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cosmopolitan \* > \*\*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly > > When I looked at the site from when you got the pic, I discovered it listed under “Antiques & Uniques”. Hence, it seemed to me that the product shown isn’t currently on the market, nor has it been for quite some time. > > Also, I didn’t notice any Chinese characters, which would indicate to me that the product was being marketed in an area in which many people spoke a Chinese dialect. I only saw words written in English. > > Therefore, I have a couple questions: > > A) Are you purporting that this picture is of a recently/currently marketed product? 'As I said, it’s my impression, after seeing the thing pictured on a site that sells “vintage” & “antique” toys & "collectibles, that the product shown hasn’t been around for a while. Perhaps I’m incorrect. > > B) Do you have some sort of cite in regard to the “name change” & claim that the current name “translates” to “black man’s toothpaste”? What is the current name? \*\* Darlie toothpaste is currently on sale in Taiwan, Hong Kong, China and I believe throughout Southest Asia. In Chinese characters, it is called “hei ren ya gao” or “black person toothpaste.” Black person is a non-racist term in Chinese. The drawing of the person in question has been altered to be less racially identifiable. I don’t have a cite for you, but there are enough Chinese reading dopers on this board who live in places where this toothpaste is sold that I hope you can take my word for it. This toothpaste used to be marketed in English as “Darkie.” The picture used to clearly be a characture of a black vaudaville type person from the 1920’s or so. Darkie has been off the market for 10 -15 years. I can’t remember when exactly. It just mutated from Darkie to Darlie. I probably have a tube or two in storage that I purchased in 1982 in Taiwan, and took back to the US to show people. IMHO, all joking aside, I didn’t like the product. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/80 "2002-04-21T00:10:51Z")
Okay, thanks. That’s all I wanted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535.md?page=5)