# Is this Wong or is it White? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535 "2002-04-19T15:42:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/81 "2002-04-21T01:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cazzle \* > \*\*So if a person is ignorant of the origin of the phrase, it ceases to be a racist catchphrase? How would we feel about this if the situation were reversed, even if the people wearing the shirt didn’t understand the meaning of the phrase? \*\* Well, I think the “wong” and "right"in A&F’s T-shirt is kind of an obvious joke, and I really doubt that the “origin of the phrase” was some obscure political debate in Australia. Moreover, the phrase isn’t exactly the same. Don’t you think that some joker in Southern California could have come up with it independently? And in any case, as **hazel-rah** said, “The same words and symbols can have different, even contradictory meanings depending on who is using them.” It’s all a matter of intent. So yes, I think that it could cease to be a “racist catchphrase” as you define it. Your question kind of reminds me of the shocked reaction many Westerners have on seeing swastikas prominently displayed in front of some restaurants in Taiwan and Hong Kong. To Chinese, the swastika doesn’t mean that the owners are Nazis, but that they offer vegitarian food. But you, **cazzle** might ask whether the swastika ceases to be a racist symbol just because the restaurant owners are ignorant of the evil uses to which it was put by Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/82 "2002-04-21T01:38:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*Or else **what**? I must have missed your reply, Pudd’ntane. What’s your point: I can call you a Mick as long as I smile, you can make fun of Asians as long as you smile? \*\* I was being humorous about “smile when you say that”. If you call me a “mick” and really mean it as an insult, I’ll think that you’re an asshole, that’s all. Your non-smiling, insulting intention would speak volumes about you and nothing at all about me–or how I feel about myself. Moreover, it won’t affect how I feel about other folks kidding around and calling me that name. (Hint, hint.) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/83 "2002-04-21T01:42:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > Darlie toothpaste is currently on sale in Taiwan, Hong Kong, China and I believe throughout Southest Asia. In Chinese characters, it is called “hei ren ya gao” or “black person toothpaste.” Black person is a non-racist term in Chinese Not to belabor a minor point, but don’t you think that the (continued) association between black people and bright, pearly whites is a bit racist in itself? It might not be such a hurtful stereotype, but it’s still a stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Skippman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skippman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skippman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/84 "2002-04-21T01:56:00Z")
\*\* Reilly, you bloody mick! Know why Scottsmen wear kilts? Because sheep can here zippers!:D\*\* ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/85 "2002-04-21T02:06:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\*Not to belabor a minor point, but don’t you think that the (continued) association between black people and bright, pearly whites is a bit racist in itself? It might not be such a hurtful stereotype, but it’s still a stereotype. \*\* You are correct, I _do_ think it is a hurtful stereotype. I was giving a direct answer to someone’s question about the toothpaste, without any commentary. Like I said earlier, the drawing of the guy on the toothpaste also changed when “darkie” switched to “darlie”. I’ll take a look in the store later today and see if I remember correctly what it looks like these days. Do you agree that “hei ren” is a non-racist descriptor in Chinese and equivalent to “black” in American English? Most common derogatory term in Chinese for “blacks” would be “hei gui” or “black devil”. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/86 "2002-04-21T02:28:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Skippman \* > \*\*\*\* Reilly, you bloody mick! Know why Scottsmen wear kilts? Because sheep can here zippers!😃_\* \*\* Smilie duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/87 "2002-04-21T02:32:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > Do you agree that “hei ren” is a non-racist descriptor in Chinese and equivalent to “black” in American English? Most common derogatory term in Chinese for “blacks” would be “hei gui” or “black devil”. Sure, “hei ren” doesn’t have to be racist, but I was saying that it’s the association, not the particular word, that was subtly racist. “African American” might be a perfectly acceptable word, but that doesn’t mean that it should be slapped on a bucket of fried chicken. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/88 "2002-04-21T06:03:45Z")
Since **Doghouse Riley** and **sailor** have been making so much noise saying that offended Asians should just “get over” the shirts, can I presume they’re both moronic conservative white guys with the cultural sensitivity of a brick? (What? You guys were offended? But geez, it’s just a joke! _Get over it!_ Or are stereotypes no longer funny when it’s your sacred cow getting gorged?) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/89 "2002-04-21T06:24:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\*Sure, “hei ren” doesn’t have to be racist, but I was saying that it’s the association, not the particular word, that was subtly racist. “African American” might be a perfectly acceptable word, but that doesn’t mean that it should be slapped on a bucket of fried chicken. \*\* You’re the guy that threw out the no longer in existence Darkie toothpaste appropros of nothing. I added factual information. Don’t be trying to paint me into a corner. Or do you want to toss out the “I was just kidding” line again? For the record, I just checked out **Darlie** toothpaste in my local supermarket here in Shanghai China. Color me surprised, it no longer has a drawing of anything on it any more. It just says “hei ren ya gao” or “black person’s toothpaste” with no drawing. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/90 "2002-04-21T06:49:30Z")
Brief hijack ( of a slightly MPSIMSish type ) [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by China Guy \* If you want to find an example of racism in Hong Kong, just take the word _ **gweilo** _, which more often than not is the word used for foreigners. It means “foreign devil”, which in itself is not so bad. However, the term “devil” in Cantonese/Mandarin _always_ has a negative connotation. [QUOTE] Interesting observation. I thought it was “white ghost”? Or is that just a slightly different translation of the same concept? It brings to mind a few years ago when a variety of family members were over for a barbecue, including my whiter than white brother, his Mandarin Chinese wife ( Taiwanese via the KMT retreat ), and there then eight-month-old daughter. It was a holiday and we were just sitting around when my neighbor ( a nice guy ), slightly drunk, wandered over for a few minutes and started playing with my young niece and cooed at her that she was a ‘gweilo baby’. My sister-in-law got QUITE ( if quietly and restrainedly ) upset at this and corrected him. He laughed and said his kids ( also youngish ) were ‘gweilo babies’ as well ( his wife is Philipino ). After he left, she sort of shrugged and said, “I don’t really think he knows just how rude that term is.” Since then, I’ve always wondered if she was being a little uptight ( she can be a little prim in odd ways at time, though she’s not overall ) or he really was clueless. Your clarification seems to come down on her side. Okay, sorry for the digression - Back to the topic at hand ( by the way I find those shirts not even remotely amusing and I’m not generally a humorless sort. _shrug_ ) - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/91 "2002-04-21T07:01:56Z")
**China Guy** : Oh and I should add that my neighbor is a white guy as well, not chinese, hence his possible ignorance. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/92 "2002-04-21T10:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > You’re the guy that threw out the no longer in existence Darkie toothpaste appropros of nothing. I added factual information. Don’t be trying to paint me into a corner. Or do you want to toss out the “I was just kidding” line again? 😕 What brought this on? I thought we were in agreement, both on Urban Ranger’s mistaken notion vis-a-vis Hong Kong, and specifically on the subtle racism behind “Darlie” :rolleyes: toothpaste. I brought up that brand of toothpaste because it was the most succinct rebuttal I could think of to Urban Ranger’s earlier assertion. rjung: I am not offended by your outburst. As I said before, your intention to insult speaks a lot about you and nothing at all about me. That’s especially true of an ad hominem attack in the context of a Great Debate. Whattsa matta baby, it makes your head hurt to try to come up with a rational counterargument to anything I’ve said? (See, now I’m speaking on your level. You can hardly accuse me of insensitivity in this regard.) I’m not saying that there aren’t counterarguments, and in fact I’ve shifted my position somewhat since the beginning of this debate, in response to some pretty good points raised by other posters. But it just seems a bit too hard for you to raise yourself to that level. Poor, poor baby. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/93 "2002-04-21T23:47:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly_ > And how many of these “slaves” have any connection whatsoever with Asians living in the US today? If I recall correctly, they weren’t allowed to settle down here; and in any case the majority of Asians living in the US today have American roots exending back only a couple of generations at most–not back to the time of the railroads. Can any Asians in America _today_ look back and say, “my ancestor was a slave”, even if your assertion is true? I’d like you to meet my great aunt, [Donaldina Cameron](http://www.cameronhouse.org/history/history_pic.html). I’ve met several descendents of the girls she rescued. Even if it lacked the scale of the African trade, slavery is still slavery, and the right to take offence isn’t awarded on a points system. ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/94 "2002-04-22T00:34:50Z")
I can’t believe that this board vehemently opposes fat jokes and yet can’t fathom what might be wrong with these shirts. They’re fairly offensive. I also have to say that I can’t find any meaning in the Chinese on them, though I could be wrong. I mean, why a single character meaning to lift, carry or raise up? ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/95 "2002-04-22T00:50:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\* > > Well, I think the “wong” and "right"in A&F’s T-shirt is kind of an obvious joke, and I really doubt that the “origin of the phrase” was some obscure political debate in Australia. Moreover, the phrase isn’t exactly the same. Don’t you think that some joker in Southern California could have come up with it independently? > \*\* Have you tried a websearch on the phrase “Two wongs don’t make a white”? Lots of puns sites offering it as a joke about an Asian couple having a Caucasian baby (“Two Wongs don’t make a white. Let’s name him Sum Ting Wong”), and references to Caldwell making the quip while talking about the White Australia Policy. Yes, it’s possible that it could have been independently created by someone in SC, but obviously it is already “out there” in joke form. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/96 "2002-04-22T00:58:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hazel-rah \* > \*\* > She sounds like a doormat to me. > > \*\* Does this kind of comment belong here in GD? I think it belongs here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=110837](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=110837) ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/97 "2002-04-22T02:57:57Z")
So are these shirts for sale on eBay yet? Frankly, I find EVERYTHING at A&F offensive. $24.50 for a damn t-shirt? How about, no. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/98 "2002-04-22T05:26:05Z")
**sailor:** \*My test is simple. If the person saying or doing something is doing it with the intent of being offensive or of just not caring if he might be offensive, then, obviously, it is rude and not acceptable. But if there is no intention to offend I just can’t see why people should get so worked up about things. \* Emphasis mine. I don’t see how you can usefully apply that test in real life. How can you tell if somebody who’s wearing a t-shirt with a racial/ethnic stereotype is intending to make fun of members of that racial/ethnic group or not? Are you supposed to go up to them and ask them? I agree that when you’re not sure of someone else’s intentions, the best default is to give them the benefit of the doubt; but I don’t think it’s a good idea for them to count on getting the benefit of the doubt or to insist that they’re somehow entitled to it. _Who cares if you are right if you are going to make a big stink about every little thing?_ You have a point here, but IMHO it goes double for those who start avowedly trivial debates simply in order to complain that other folks are being too PC. \*My point is that you cannot be offended unless you are insecure to begin with and you are looking to be offended. \* Can’t agree with you there. Plenty of people are bigoted and/or insensitive enough to do and say things all the time that deeply offend even the very secure and non-belligerent. **DR:** \*Maybe people are free to sell stuff, have a sense of humor, and exercise their freedom of speech without living in fear of the self-appointed arbiters of victimhood. \* Goodness, look who’s whining about victimization now! Oh my, poor, poor Abercrombie and Fitch, unable to make an honest living and exercise their constitutional rights without “living in fear” (oooh, echoes of totalitarian terror!) of some unspecified vengeance from the “self-appointed arbiters”! :rolleyes: Give us a break. As **Biggirl** pointed out, nobody’s rights are being trampled on, nobody is forcing anybody else to “live in fear.” What happened here is simply that a clothing company came out with a product line that certain consumers found offensive, and when those consumers objected to it, the company decided to pull the line in order not to injure its popularity. That’s how marketing works, okay? There’s no free-speech issue here. You want a “Pizza Dojo” shirt, you go study the model in the above link, get yourself a plain t-shirt, and copy the design onto it; I seriously doubt that A&F will bother suing you for copyright infringement, since they’re not expecting to make any more money on it anyway. You wear that shirt anywhere you like, and if anybody infringes your constitutional rights or illegally harasses you because of it, I’ll be the first and the loudest to complain that such treatment is intolerable. As for the nasty looks and negative comments you’ll get from those who are offended by it, though, just chalk it up to free speech and don’t come back here whining about how you have to live in fear of the arbiters. \*And in various ethnic enclaves around the US, such as the Swedes in Minnesota or the Germans in central Texas, you’ll find members of those groups proudly playing up their respective stereotypes. \* They didn’t always, not when those stereotypes could still get them shunned in mainstream society, keep them out of desirable jobs, or in extreme cases get them killed. Lots of nineteenth-century German immigrants objected to being called “Dutchies”, just as Irish ones resented being called “micks” (or worse, “white Negroes”) or humorously portrayed as lazy, ignorant, drunken, priest-ridden menials. In fact, the comfort level of an ethnic group with its old negative stereotypes is a pretty good indicator of how far that group has been “mainstreamed” into American society. Now that the American descendants of Germans, Irish, Swedes, and Italians seldom or never encounter serious prejudice against their own ethnic groups, they can laugh about the forms that prejudice used to take. Yes, it would be nice if the American descendants of East Asians were so integrated into American culture that they could all laugh at silly jokes like “two Wongs can make it white.” However, since we’re obviously not there yet, I think it’s pretty pointless (not to say arrogant) to complain that it’s the offended Asian-Americans’ fault for being such prissy humorless old party-poopers. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/99 "2002-04-22T05:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Space Vampire \* > I can’t believe that this board vehemently opposes fat jokes and yet can’t fathom what might be wrong with these shirts. To be fair, it appears that _most_ of the folks participating in this thread _do_ find the shirts offensive. It’s just a handful of guys who continue to argue otherwise (and not very successfully, IMO). ---
**Author:** ![Nacho4Sara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Nacho4Sara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nacho4Sara)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535/100 "2002-04-22T05:51:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Exactly my point. Let an ethnic group be offended if they wish. Let the others not _have_ to understand or share _why_ they are offended. I am sorry but I do not consider it my first duty in life to bend over backwards trying to understand and share the insecurities of every person or group out there. First of all, if a large enough group of people are offended by the t-shirts, and A&F takes them off the market, how is that inconviencing you? Where does “bending over backward” come into play? How is this greatly disturbing your livelihood? It’s not. Ultimately, you are complaining about not having to go out and buy a t-shirt that does no longer exists. No one is asking anyone to “bend over backwards” with deference to miniroties in the United States. At most, you are being asked to accept the fact that Asians are offended by these t-shirts. You don’t have to understand their insecurities, or what it is like to be a minority; you simply have to act with empathy and respect. If you wouldn’t go up to an African American and offer him some lip balm so his “big nigger lips” won’t get sunburnt (I actually witnessed someone doing this at a beach); if you wouldn’t offer a Native American (I assume Doghouse Reilly was referring to Native Americans when he mentioned “Indians”) a blanket and joke about it being infected with smallpox; if you wouldn’t approach a Mexican and say “Eh, ameeego, how 'bout lookin for a job?”; then why is it okay to wear a t-shirt featuring a undersized, slant-eyed, Raidon hat-wearing, laundry-owning, pidgin English-speaking Asian immigrant? Doghouse Reilly, it doesn’t really matter who suffered most at the hands of the white majority; what matters is that certain minorites did indeed suffer extreme cruelty (such as the Japanese internment camps). There is no point to ranking the relative levels of pain inflicted. That whole argument is a non sequitur - I don’t understand how you can justify racist jokes toward one culture because they suffered less based on your scale of minority suffering. So what if Asian immigrants suffered less than African chattel slaves? They still suffered, and they have every right to be insulted by a line of t-shirts that capitalize on the worst stereotypes of their peoples. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-wong-or-is-it-white/104535.md?page=6)