# Is Tolkien's claim of no influence from Wagner's "Ring" saga a self serving fib? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962 "2003-12-19T14:12:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/41 "2003-12-21T00:42:04Z")
And the hero that sacrafices his life to save the kingdom is clearly of christian origin. Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/42 "2003-12-21T00:44:12Z")
Intersting link though, btw, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/43 "2003-12-21T00:47:02Z")
I also got confused and mixed up my religions. The audio link mentioned the Anglican religion, and I attributed it to Tolkien when in fact it was C.S Lewis that was Anglican. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/44 "2003-12-21T00:52:32Z")
“And the hero that sacrafices his life to save the kingdom is clearly of christian origin.” No it isn’t, and no one ever said that it was. It shows up in far more ancient myths than Christianity. It is another of the universal devices used in all tragic hero myths. The point is that you are claiming that Tolkein utilised that device under influence from Wagner. Since Tolkein admits that the work was influenced by the Gospels and denies that it was influenced by Wagner your claim makes no sense even if we accept that the device was borrowed. You are rejecting the most logical explanation and the one supported by the author and embracing the illogical cause that is specifically denied by the author. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/45 "2003-12-21T01:03:34Z")
Nothing to add to the debate, just a nitpick, but isn’t “round ring” rather redundant? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/46 "2003-12-21T01:14:09Z")
Yes, and it’s meant to be. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/47 "2003-12-21T01:17:36Z")
I doubt that there was no effect or influence from Wagner in the same way that there would be no effect or influence from Shakespeare. I mean, if you think about it, how often does Shakespeare pop up in English (language, not just country) literature? While the Ring Cycle may not have the same universal presence, many people know of it and at least the basic ideas. What I think I’m trying to say is that there might be a slight unconscious effect from Wagner in the same way there could be an effect from Shakespeare or _Beowulf_ or any other famous and influential piece of literature, but that it’s definitely reasonable to agree with the explanation from the author, that there was no overt effect. Of course, Tolkien did borrow from the Nordic and Germanic myths to at least some degree. For example, take a look at all the dwarf names in _The Hobbit_, then go look up a decent Norse mythology book. You’ll see just about complete overlap, though perhaps some spelling or sound changes. Otherwise, I agree with **Blake**. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/48 "2003-12-21T02:47:52Z")
A shill for George Bernard Shaw. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/49 "2003-12-21T02:48:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HPL \* > \*\*I’d love to comment, but I still get lost when trying to dechipehr the plot of “Gotterdamrung”. I guess it’s because it seemingly has little or no connection whatsoever to the first three parts of the ring cycle. \*\* Dammit. A shill for GBS. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962/50 "2003-12-21T06:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\*And the hero that sacrafices his life to save the kingdom is clearly of christian origin. Yeah. \*\* The climactic scene on Mt Doom is overtly influenced by Christianity. That whole ‘human (hobbit) effort comes up short but God’s (Eru’s) grace saves the day’ thing, you know? I’m not particularly familiar with Nordic or Germanic myths, but how often are they blatantly Pauline\* like this? Not often, would be my WAG. \*Well, not exactly Pauline, or at least, not in the sense in which Paul is understood by Protestants. Tolkien’s Catholicism shows here, as Frodo is granted grace largely because of the mercy he has shown in the past (to Gollum, mostly). Or so says the author in his letters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tolkiens-claim-of-no-influence-from-wagners-ring-saga-a-self-serving-fib/219962.md?page=2)