# Is Trans fear driven by a fear of being deceived? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2024, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837 "2024-11-27T03:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/301 "2024-12-17T00:04:17Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I sometimes wonder if our knowledge of Greek and Roman cultural mores is colored by the fact that what we know of them is largely the writings of an urban intelligentsia Short answer- Last time I checked we had one heck of a lot artifacts. Do you have a cite proving that our knowledge of their cultures is based "largely on the writings of urban intelligentsia? And how about responding to my other posts? Now, if you’ll excuse me I must walk to the mini mart for eggnog and chocolate before it rains ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/302 "2024-12-17T00:15:20Z")
dtdhtdh > [@Zoobi](#): > > I mean he’s already used a slur against them and compared them to incest practitioners. I think his position is quite clear. Apparently that wasn’t quite far enough! > [@Lumpy](#): > > Only a pervert, someone desensitized to something grossly and blatantly aberrant, could even have any doubts on the subject, on a level with necrophilia, bestiality, or coprophagia. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/303 "2024-12-17T01:00:54Z")
Sorry, I failed to address that. I am having a bad day. During a call- I played the wrong recording, then I played the correct recording- twice in a row, then I forgot to hang up on the recording line and didn’t realize it til the voice menu started playing. Then, I did a bunch of things in the wrong order. I hope management does not pick that particular call for a quality control score. Also, the mini mart was out of egg nog. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/304 "2024-12-17T01:12:11Z")
Since when does “ick factor” have anything whatsoever to do with morality? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/305 "2024-12-17T01:13:05Z")
For the sake of my blood pressure I am going to have to bow out of this thread. I’ve said my 2¢ worth and then some already. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/306 "2024-12-17T01:16:53Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > This isn’t really debatable except at the axiomatic level: either you believe in, or reject, traditional moral judgement Whose traditional moral judgement? There are and have been a whole lot of moral traditions. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/307 "2024-12-17T01:20:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Since when does “ick factor” have anything whatsoever to do with morality? I know you know this, but for the record … Many people have their personal ick factor drive what they mistakenly call their “morality”. And that’s the sort of wicked perversion of reality that’s destroying what could be a civilized country if we bothered to try. Or better yet had an entrance exam. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/308 "2024-12-17T01:27:38Z")
You are unable or unwilling to defend your positions or provide cites for your claims. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/309 "2024-12-17T02:08:42Z")
> **off-topic post hidden** > > The shooter at the Madison school shooting today was trans according to this report: > > [Samantha Rupnow Discord account, BrainedOut manifesto: hatred of men](https://scallywagandvagabond.com/2024/12/samantha-rupnow-discord-account-brainedout-manifesto-wisconsin-shooter/) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/310 "2024-12-17T02:12:24Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Whose traditional moral judgement? Christian bigots. That’s what people in the Anglosphere virtually always mean when they say “traditional morals”. Not non-Christians, and not non-bigoted Christians, but _specifically_ bigoted Christians. We saw a ton of that rhetoric here during the debate over same sex marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/311 "2024-12-17T02:17:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Many people have their personal ick factor drive what they mistakenly call their “morality”. Sort of? But for an example: I and most other modern first-worlders would consider it icky to stick my hand into a big bucket full of maggots. However, I wouldn’t consider it at all immoral for a person to do so, nor do I think most other folks would. So clearly, it’s possible for people to think something is icky without considering it immoral. I think that the difference is that very few people, almost none, actually have the urge to stick their hands in buckets of maggots. But a lot of people do have the urge to have gay sex. I think that most modern homophobia (and transphobia) comes from those closeted folks. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/312 "2024-12-17T02:17:51Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > The shooter at the Madison school shooting today was trans according to this report: > > [Samantha Rupnow Discord account, BrainedOut manifesto: hatred of men](https://scallywagandvagabond.com/2024/12/samantha-rupnow-discord-account-brainedout-manifesto-wisconsin-shooter/) …is trans fear being driven by school shootings now? Because otherwise, I’m not sure why it’s randomly being dropped in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/313 "2024-12-17T02:26:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Whose traditional moral judgement? > > Christian bigots. That’s what people in the Anglosphere virtually always mean when they say “traditional morals”. Not non-Christians, and not non-bigoted Christians, but _specifically_ bigoted Christians. We saw a ton of that rhetoric here during the debate over same sex marriage. Gotta agree with this post. > [@Chronos](#): > > Sort of? But for an example: I and most other modern first-worlders would consider it icky to stick my hand into a big bucket full of maggots. However, I wouldn’t consider it at all immoral for a person to do so, nor do I think most other folks would. So clearly, it’s possible for people to think something is icky without considering it immoral. Another example: i find sticking a needle in someone to be very icky. And yet, i consent to let doctors draw my blood and even {shudder} insert IV lines in certain circumstances, and also paid people to give my kids vaccines. Incredibly icky and sqeamish-making, IMHO, but not immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/314 "2024-12-17T03:27:15Z")
Aren’t you thrilled that you have a brain and aren’t driven purely by the nature of primitive man and can understand modern concerns and control your reactions based on something other than getting stalked by a saber tooth tiger. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/315 "2024-12-17T03:28:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We saw a ton of that rhetoric here during the debate over same sex marriage. The prohibition on same-sex relations in Leviticus 18:22 certainly seems to be based on some version of an “ick factor”: > Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: **it is abomination.** ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/316 "2024-12-17T05:54:29Z")
What do you mean by ‘normal’? It’s learned behaviour socialized into us, not some natural law. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/317 "2024-12-17T06:03:39Z")
Or the Moche. Or the Japanese. Or any one of numerous other cultures that seemed to completely lack that Ick. Until they had it trained into them. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/318 "2024-12-17T16:21:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I think the word “revulsed” is unnecessarily emotive, and out of place for this discussion. It goes beyond mere “I’m not attracted to…” to instead “a sense of disgust and loathing.” I agree. I almost said something about it, and glad you did. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Once upon a time the Ick Factor was not merely allowable it was considered a moral compass. Only a pervert, someone desensitized to something grossly and blatantly aberrant, could even have any doubts on the subject, on a level with necrophilia, bestiality, or coprophagia. I agree. Having sex with men is icky. Only a pervert would want to. All you women out there, you need to stop having icky sex with men. Don’t be a pervert! > [@Lumpy](#): > > This isn’t really debatable except at the axiomatic level: either you believe in, or reject, traditional moral judgement. Traditional moral judgement _is_ a sociological phenomenon. It’s right there in the word “traditional”. And the word “moral”. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Christian bigots. That’s what people in the Anglosphere virtually always mean when they say “traditional morals”. Not non-Christians, and not non-bigoted Christians, but _specifically_ bigoted Christians. Yes. They are the only ones whose opinion matters. Everyone else is out of the mainstream. STOP GETTING YOUR LIBERALISM IN MY FACE! /bigot ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/319 "2024-12-17T16:22:21Z")
**Moderating:** Very much an off-topic post. I’ll hide. Please avoid this in #Great Debates going forward. * * * * * * > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …is trans fear being driven by school shootings now? Because otherwise, I’m not sure why it’s randomly being dropped in this thread. Please flag posts like this time rather than replying to them. Your post only increases the hijacking likelihood. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/320 "2024-12-17T17:40:00Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I sometimes wonder if our knowledge of Greek and Roman cultural mores is colored by the fact that what we know of them is largely the writings of an urban intelligentsia It’s liberal ivory tower elites all the way down!!! Is your speculation that there is an ignored voice of the “common man” Greek or Roman, and that voice probably aligns with your ideas of a natural morality based on any knowledge of the study of ancient history? What can you tell us about existing sources for our understanding of ancient cultures? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=17)