# Is Trans fear driven by a fear of being deceived? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2024, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837 "2024-11-27T03:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/21 "2024-11-27T20:05:19Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And it’s part confusion and fear about the unknown- for most people, their _ **gender** _ is something that’s basically immutable and not something they ever had to consider, unlike their sexuality. So they just flat out don’t get that some people may not identify with the gender of their private parts. And, to build on this: because they don’t understand that some people don’t identify with their at-birth gender, and they can’t conceptualize how someone could feel that way, they have decided that anyone who says that they feel that way is lying, or making things up – and, thus, they are perfectly justified in refusing to accept a trans person’s preferred identity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/22 "2024-11-27T20:23:56Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In a much wider sense – a lot of people see the universe as essentially divided into neat categories. It’s not just about the specific categories – species divisions, sexual divisions, “right” or “wrong” religious beliefs. It’s about the underlying structure of whether everything, to put it in the terms of formal logic, is “either y or not-y”. The name for that belief is “[essentialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialism)”, by the way. Thus the term “gender essentialism” - the gender-specific version of that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/23 "2024-11-27T20:44:08Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > And, to build on this: because they don’t understand that some people don’t identify with their at-birth gender, and they can’t conceptualize how someone could feel that way, they have decided that anyone who says that they feel that way is lying, or making things up …or mentally ill—they categorize a “man who thinks he’s a woman” similarly to “a man who thinks he’s Napoleon.” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/24 "2024-11-27T20:45:41Z")
Or just profoundly mentally ill. That’s the usual thing I’ve heard from people I’ve heard talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/25 "2024-11-27T21:11:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, there is a certain “call a spade a spade” rebellious attitude against transgenderism. When people see someone who has the voice of a man, and still looks like a man, demanding to be referred to as ma’am or her, it leads many people to say “No, I will call you what I see you as.” A certain anti-emperor’s new clothes attitude. Yes, I agree that’s a big factor for a lot of people. “No, I’ve always defined people this way and will continue to do so.” I just think the obstinacy comes from that unconscious suspicion of why that person is “lying”. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > Maybe? But your original statements were about “fear of being decieved”. For the trans-exclusive, there’s it’s not about the deception (intent or otherwise) but about distinct definitions that inform their own self-judgement, as well as their perception of past, present, and future treatment @HMS_Irruncible did a better job saying what I meant. It’s that “why are they trying to deceive me? What do they have to gain? How are they taking advantage of me?” It may even be a bit of not wanting to be made to look like a fool. “Ha ha, I tricked you and you feel for it.” Not necessarily as conscious motives, but underlying unconscious ones. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’ve been saying transsexuals are just the modern equivalent of toupees for years and years. And where has it gotten me? Banned from the YMCA and facebook. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Maybe you’ve been banned from those places for not making any sense? Equating people to fake hair is a bit demeaning. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > But to the degree finding the spark excuses the inferno, or lends it intellectual credibility, we’re all in effect joining the nodding chorus, the “silent” majority" that watch as folks are loaded into the boxcars. I certainly don’t explore this out of a sense of justifying it. It’s more an observation about my own feelings and an attempt to see what drives people. I think we can work to understand the causes in order to find ways of getting through to some of them without dismissing legitimate harm or justifying bad behavior. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And i speculated that men who look at me as prey are terrified that there might be guys out there looking at them the way they are looking at me. I think you are right. I appreciation all the comments. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/26 "2024-11-27T21:20:44Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > @HMS_Irruncible did a better job saying what I meant. It’s that “why are they trying to deceive me? What do they have to gain? How are they taking advantage of me?” > > It may even be a bit of not wanting to be made to look like a fool. “Ha ha, I tricked you and you feel for it.” Ah, in that case yes, we’re largely in agreement (although there wasn’t that much disagreement in the first place!). Absolutely a lot of people who fear trans persons in general are because they’re always looking for what their “angle” is, and just _don’t get it_. Or, as is a chronic issue for our species, constantly judging others by their own standards and (limited) understanding _only_. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/27 "2024-11-27T21:25:50Z")
But the thing that amplifies the fear of “being tricked” is the absolute terror of having any thought or feeling that could be considered even remotely adjacent to non-heterosexuality and disapproval of same in others. I think that’s really the root of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/28 "2024-11-27T21:32:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Yeah, I think a lot of it is people shouting ‘You ought to be upset by this!’ at people who otherwise might have barely noticed such a thing as existing, and been only mildly concerned about it if they did. Intolerance is often an attitude that pervades more than one area of a person’s beliefs - that is, people who are intolerant about one thing, are quite likely to be intolerant about a whole lot of things and this often includes intolerance of other people’s failure to align with their intolerance. “You ought not to be trans” goes hand in hand with “everyone ought not to disagree with me about this” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/29 "2024-11-27T21:56:19Z")
…it isn’t about “fear.” Racism isn’t driven by fear. It’s driven by an inmate sense of superiority. Misogyny isn’t driven by fear. It’s about power. The reality is that “trans fear” is being driven by a multi-million dollar propaganda and marketing campaign by people that either hate trans people, or are indifferent but anti-trans propaganda is profitable, so they’ll jump on the bandwagon. That’s really about it. They _fan_ the fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to _suffering_. Or so my little green friend would say. But the fear is largely manufactured, and needs to be viewed through that lens. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/30 "2024-11-27T22:17:51Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I certainly don’t explore this out of a sense of justifying it. It’s more an observation about my own feelings and an attempt to see what drives people As I’d said upthread, I don’t doubt your good motives. And yes, understanding the other side is the first step to effectively engaging them to counteract them. But the rest of the risk I cited is still out there. Perhaps not for you personally, but for many. @Banquet_Bear: 'Zactly. This is predominantly manufactured controversy. Manufactured for the purpose of ushering in a finance-capital driven klepto-Fascist government. And ~80M Americans fell for it hook, line, sinker, _and_ rowboat. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/31 "2024-11-27T23:46:29Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Hopefully you understand that I was pointing out one reason that people have strong resistance to updating their ideas, without actually endorsing that resistance. We can observe why people find certain things important without actually supporting or agreeing with them. Agreed. And I was trying to say not that categorization is never useful, but that its misuse can be dangerous. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The name for that belief is “[essentialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialism)”, by the way. – I’m not up to getting into essentialism tonight, except to say that I don’t think it’s synonymous with what I was trying to discuss, though I see a relationship. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Racism isn’t driven by fear. It’s driven by an inmate sense of superiority. Misogyny isn’t driven by fear. It’s about power. I don’t think that’s always true. A desire to have power over others often comes from a fear of others having power over oneself. And people who want to feel superior but are afraid that they aren’t sometimes react by declaring others inferior. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The reality is that “trans fear” is being driven by a multi-million dollar propaganda and marketing campaign I think you’re right about that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/32 "2024-11-28T08:05:30Z")
I think more than one answer can be true. The trans panic seems an almost perfect confluence of the things that trigger conservatives particularly, but many people in modern society more generally: 1. General ick factor or uncanny valley depending on where someone’s appearance and voice seems to lie on the gender spectrum. People generally have a hard time separating out “ick” from immorality, because both can give the same sense of revulsion. 2. Yes the deception thing that the OP outlines. I remember there was even a phase in rap music where many songs had a verse where the rapper would take home the hottest woman he’d ever seen except – spoiler – she had a penis. Needless to say he would always either sprint out of there or commit assault. And of course lots of times in movies too, as mentioned. It \*is\* there as a concern, no matter how ridiculous the scenario is in reality. 3. Discomfort at the conflicted feelings / bi-curious. 4. Putting people into male and female boxes remains one of the very last acceptable ways to group people. And by that, I don’t mean expecting women to be homemakers, but there remains lots of expectations of gender roles, and not just by sexists; it remains one of the first things you need to declare on a form for a reason. I get that it’s a big deal, for conservatives, for the hard lines to be blurring. It would basically leave only age as a reliable grouping factor. * * * FTR I don’t personally care about any of the stuff I’ve listed. And of course, the above is not sufficient for a _moral panic_. For that, conservatives have had to invent the idea that trans is inherently tied up with grooming children and/or doing drive-thru operations on children. I didn’t include that in the list because this is more tied to moral panics than the phenomenon itself; if next month the moral panic is baggy jeans there would be memes about how people are using baggy jeans to abduct children. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/33 "2024-11-28T08:33:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it isn’t about “fear.” > > Racism isn’t driven by fear. It’s driven by an inmate sense of superiority. Misogyny isn’t driven by fear. It’s about power. Yeah, fear can be a symptom, but it’s not the disease. Edit: I suppose some people might just be independently feeling fear or uncertainty just from having their norms challenged, but insofar as there is an _anti-trans movement_, it’s not driven by fear as a root cause. They’ll happily gather up the fearful and try to onboard them though, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Dinoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de0a6/32.png) [@Dinoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinoguy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/34 "2024-11-28T13:02:29Z")
I think just fear of not being a part of our tribe is part of it. I haven’t figured out exactly what “woke ideology” is except it’s whatever they don’t like. I can see that - especially on trans athletes - some people may wonder “hey this guy can’t compete with real guys so he wears a dress and calls himself a woman.” I have trouble conceiving of someone that desperate, it makes no sense to me. I think also, the constant barrage of “trans” mudslinging was a possible factor in the election. When I’m confronted with a topic I don’t understand, I usually check it out with reliable sources to find out the truth. Many, I think, are too lazy to do that (or fear they might have to change their mind). ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/35 "2024-11-28T13:55:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it isn’t about “fear.” I’m using “fear” in a more colloquial sense of aversion. It’s the lack of understanding of how someone could feel that way combined with the innate psychology of suspicion over being taken advantage of, plus a generally rigid way of thinking. I think there is a bit of actual fear at what kind of perversion they are up to, i.e. the bathroom stuff. But that isn’t the biggest issue. Remember, men dressing as women has been a longtime gag played for amusement and derision. Mockery. But the concept of someone actually feeling different than their body is something most of us don’t experience and so a lot of people react with skepticism. It doesn’t help that drag shows and drag queens get dragged into the picture. The historical roots of that tied to burlesque just triggers the morality police. It feeds the narrative that transgenders are “cross dressing” for some devious, perverted purpose. Yes, I’m aware drag queens are different than transgender. The morality police, though, tend to conflate the two, or lump them under the same concept. I think the definitions and sorting factor are key components. “You’re not conforming to _my_ expectations, how dare you?” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/36 "2024-11-28T14:45:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think more than one answer can be true. The trans panic seems an almost perfect confluence of the things that trigger conservatives particularly, but many people in modern society more generally I think the things you listed are all valid. And I might add fear of change, and generally feeling dissatisfied with or out of place in the modern world and longing for the world one grew up in, when “girls were girls and men were men” and nobody talked about transexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/37 "2024-11-28T15:27:35Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The trans panic seems an almost perfect confluence of the things that trigger conservatives particularly I’m not even sure if these things are triggers in the sense that they just happen along and push someone’s buttons. Conservatives seem like they are actively seeking things to get upset about. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/38 "2024-11-28T15:55:35Z")
I think it’s another “both things…” Conservatives do want things to be outraged about. We had many years of a fake “war on Christmas” both in the UK and the US (I think to a lesser extent). And you have examples like the recent release of a game with an attractive female protagonist, where people with large followings on X were asking said followers _to try to find_ reviews criticizing the sexiness of the game. Eventually finding a review from IGN France that seemed somewhat critical and then pretending to be offended at how crazy woke reviews have gotten. But it’s also true that trans works better than stuff like war on Christmas. As I say, it presses some ick buttons for some people. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/39 "2024-11-28T16:05:20Z")
Good point. I suppose a lot of this thread has been ‘not this, actually that’, when the reality might be ‘all of those things’ in assortment and combination. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/40 "2024-11-28T16:06:14Z")
I have to agree with the thread title. The story of Gwen Araujo (I may have spelled her last name wrong. I mean absolutely no insult or disrespect) has been thoroughly discussed on the Dope. In case any body does not remember- Gwen lived in the American Southwest. She went to a party fillled with other teenagers. She met a cute boy. They danced. They decided to go someplace more private. They kissed a lot. At some point, with mutual consent, Gwen performed oral sex on the boy. They went back to the party, The boy (I assume after bragging to his friends about how he had scored with a hot girl. That is just how teenage boys are) learned that Gwen was a pre op trans girl. He took the news very badly, and beat her to death. At his trial, he claimed the ‘trans panic defense’. The jury agreed with him. I cannot recall if he was given just a minor slap on the wrist or acquitted outright. While the viewpoint on the SDMB is generally more enlightened, Gwen’s story still represents how most Americans feel about trans people. Just Shoot Me had an episode where a character’s childhood best friend has transitioned and the character is having trouble dealing with it. The portrayal was generally sympathetic. BUT, rather than an actual trans woman, the trans woman was played by Jenny McCarthy. Ugly Betty had a sympathetic trans woman character. Once again, the actress playing that character was a cis woman. Two trans woman characters appeared on Alley McBeal. While mostly sympathetic, both were depicted as other and somewhat freakish. Futurama had an episode in which Bender transition into Coilette to compete in the robot olympics. What initially looks to be a ‘trans woman atheletes are really men’ story, it becomes a thoughtful exploration of gender identity. SPOILER The robot in question eventually struggles with whether they are really the male Bender or the female Coilette. In a shockingly thoughtful episode of American Dad, Steve dresses as a girl to join a roller derby team. It is revealed that the other members of the team have known all along that their new team mate has a penis. They just thought she was a trans lesbian. After some serious thought and questioning, Steve comes to the conclusion that he is indeed a boy. The reality show There’s Something About Miriam never aired in the US. A group of hot men compete for the love of the hot woman, Miriam, What the audience knows and the hot men don’t is that Miriam is a pre op trans woman. Miriam you stupid bitch. Way to perpetuate the trope that no straight man would ever get involved with a trans woman if he knew she was trans. Way to perpetuate the trope that all trans women are predators looking to ‘trick’ straight men into having sex with them, I could go on. This is the idea of tran people that the average American has. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=3)