# Is Trans fear driven by a fear of being deceived? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2024, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837 "2024-11-27T03:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/81 "2024-12-02T03:06:10Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > I assumed it was a reference to the [Toupee fallacy](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy) That might make some sense; though I’d still like to see an answer from @Wesley_Clark. My response to a question about whether I know any trans people (other than online) would be “I don’t know. If I do, they haven’t told me that they are.” > [@msmith537](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > > [@Mijin](#): > > > > > > With all this being said though, I agree that being nervous about trans in bathrooms say is not necessarily trans hate; there can be real concerns and real risks. And a lot of the solution is not educating people on trans but bearing in mind the legitimate fears as we amend laws. > > > > _What_ “legitimate fears”? The danger is all one way; trans people are assaulted and murdered and persecuted on a regular basis. > > “Fears” don’t have to be legitimate. T @Mijin’s post said “real risks”, though. So I’ll rephrase it: what “real risks”? > [@LSLGuy](#): > > IMO every human of whatever gender path through life, is a sexual being. Not in all contexts. (And, for that matter, not quite all people.) > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > when should a Trans person inform someone that they are Trans? If they’re not intending or hoping to have sex with me, I see no need for them to tell me at all. They can if they want, of course. But I don’t see why there’d be any requirement to do so. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/82 "2024-12-02T04:13:58Z")
They usually tell me when they change their names and pronouns. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/83 "2024-12-02T04:17:10Z")
Yes, if you know them before and after the transition. I was thinking of people who didn’t meet until after the transition. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/84 "2024-12-02T04:22:34Z")
Self preservation is a thing. Given the absurd level of hatred they face they have zero obligation to tell anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/85 "2024-12-02T04:24:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If they’re not intending or hoping to have sex with me, I see no need for them to tell me at all. They can if they want, of course. But I don’t see why there’d be any requirement to do so. I agree. Unless there is a romantic/sexual component to the relationship then there is zero requirement to discuss it. If the person wants to then fine but they do not have to if they do not want to. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/86 "2024-12-02T09:29:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > @Mijin’s post said “real risks”, though. So I’ll rephrase it: what “real risks”? Let me restate again that this was just me playing devil’s advocate for a moment. I have said many times over the years here, that the bathroom issue is purely a drummed-up fear by the right and there are zero examples of any abuse (…to my knowledge. And if there actually has been a case or two this doesn’t suddenly make it legitimate to be at the center of public discourse as a major issue). And that I have used unisex toilets in multiple countries; it’s just a restroom, nobody cares. The bit I’m being quoted and requoted on, was in the context of how we respond to women who say they _are_ worried about this issue; whether we should be dismissive and whether they have anything real to be afraid of? And my answer is: we shouldn’t be dismissive, although I would say to them much of what I said in my first paragraph. And that, yeah, hypothetically there are risks, because America is full of dumb motherfuckers, as we’ve seen, and this issue has been politicized. So even if it is already the case that a cisgender man can walk into a woman’s bathroom and not break any laws (at least the first time), if there’s even a _perception_ that the rules have changed, I expect at least a handful of idiots being idiots; doing stunts or worse. Are you sure that there _won’t_ be? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/87 "2024-12-02T09:37:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And my answer is: we shouldn’t be dismissive, although I would say to them much of what I said in my first paragraph. _Not_ being dismissive validates their claims and makes it look like you are agreeing with them. It’s falling for a standard right wing rhetorical trick, they rely on opponents being “polite” and taking their absurd claims seriously, which makes it look to third parties like they must be a reasonable position to take. After all if it _wasn’t_ reasonable then their opponents wouldn’t be taking it so seriously, right? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/88 "2024-12-02T09:38:44Z")
I’ve long wondered if the trans-phobes have really thought it out. Imagine a trans-man who, by law, has to use a women’s bathroom because the law says they have to use the bathroom that is the gender they were at birth. What a mess that never needed to be a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/89 "2024-12-02T09:40:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’ve long wondered if the trans-phobes have really thought it out. > > Imagine a trans-man who, by law, has to use a woman’s bathroom because the law says they have to use the bathroom that is the gender they were at birth. It’s make them unhappy and a target, which is exactly what the transphobes want. If it makes any women there unhappy that’s a bonus, they tend to hate women too. It’s _all_ about hate. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/90 "2024-12-02T09:46:15Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > there are zero examples of any abuse (…to my knowledge I should clarify this bit: I of course mean a (fake) trans man going into the women’s bathroom to oggle women, sexually assault them, or just show off to the women that (s)he still has male genitalia. No examples of any of this to my knowledge. If by abuse we mean _of trans women_, including harassment, violence or sexual assault, there are of course, sadly, many examples. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/91 "2024-12-02T12:15:48Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Thank you for the clarification. It’s now on my list. This is a very positive outcome. To spread the work of Julia Serano is to spread sanity, reason, and science on the subject of transgender. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/92 "2024-12-02T12:50:18Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Yes, if you know them before and after the transition. I was thinking of people who didn’t meet until after the transition. Yes, if you meet someone who adopted a gender not on their birth certificate years ago, there’s a good chance you’d never know. And there’s really no reason you’d have to know unless you were very close to them. (I mean, i hear the random medical travails of a lot of my closer friends, too.) I was kind of joking. I am part of a dance community that is very trans and non-binary friendly, and based on a college. Lots of young adults come out as trans or non-binary when they leave home. And honestly, just like a lot of gays and lesbians came out in the 80s, a lot of non-cis people are coming out now. So i am constantly needing to learn new names, and update mailing list entries. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/93 "2024-12-02T13:08:23Z")
Also, appreciation to Der Trihs who has also demonstrated a clear view and accurate understanding of the plight of trans women under the current political barrage. But on the whole, this thread has been awfully objectifying, to the extent of edging into being part of the problem. I want to express praise for those who have shown compassionate and clear understanding of the subject: China Guy, Big T, LSL Guy, Banquet Bear, Puzzle Gal, and Der Trihs. In particular I want to boost the signal of post no. 87 here. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/94 "2024-12-02T16:17:22Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So even if it is already the case that a cisgender man can walk into a woman’s bathroom and not break any laws (at least the first time), if there’s even a _perception_ that the rules have changed, I expect at least a handful of idiots being idiots; doing stunts or worse. > Are you sure that there _won’t_ be? Are you saying that the real risk is that people objecting to trans people in bathrooms will disguise themselves as trans people and cause trouble? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > ’ve long wondered if the trans-phobes have really thought it out. > > Imagine a trans-man who, by law, has to use a women’s bathroom because the law says they have to use the bathroom that is the gender they were at birth. Of course they haven’t thought it out. In addition to the above issue (which I brought up earlier in the thread), I’ve never seen a thing about how they expect to enforce this. They seem to be assuming that everyone can tell cis from trans by a casual glance at them, which is bullshit. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes, if you meet someone who adopted a gender not on their birth certificate years ago, there’s a good chance you’d never know. And there’s really no reason you’d have to know unless you were very close to them. (I mean, i hear the random medical travails of a lot of my closer friends, too.) Not only random medical travails, but various assorted worries. I wouldn’t be surprised if a close friend, or even an acquaintance, did tell me such a thing – I just meant that I wouldn’t feel it was something that they had to tell me. > [@Johanna](#): > > I want to express praise for those who have shown compassionate and clear understanding of the subject: China Guy, Big T, LSL Guy, Banquet Bear, Puzzle Gal, and Der Trihs. I’m apparently screwing up somehow. If you want to (not required) it might be useful to me to tell me how. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/95 "2024-12-02T16:20:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Are you saying that the real risk is that people objecting to trans people in bathrooms will disguise themselves as trans people and cause trouble? I can believe that a few idiots would, without disguising themselves at all, cause trouble by walking into the wrong bathroom and insisting that nobody can stop them because gender is whatever you want it to be, or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/96 "2024-12-02T16:26:18Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Are you saying that the real risk is that people objecting to trans people in bathrooms will disguise themselves as trans people and cause trouble? (Ninja’d by Mangetout) Almost. I am saying that the real risk is MAGA idiots who aren’t trans exploiting this either to be jerks, or to make a point, or worse. They don’t necessarily have to think it’s a bad idea to let trans use women’s restrooms, though of course most will have been radicalized. From what I can see, trans are the #1 target of hate right now on right-wing forums, twitter, etc. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/97 "2024-12-02T16:57:40Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Are you saying that the real risk is that people objecting to trans people in bathrooms will disguise themselves as trans people and cause trouble? > > I can believe that a few idiots would, without disguising themselves at all, cause trouble by walking into the wrong bathroom and insisting that nobody can stop them because gender is whatever you want it to be, or something like that. Same mentality that parks a diesel pickup truck blocking EV chargers. Bullying is _fun_; the funnest thing you can do in public. Or so the idjits think. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/98 "2024-12-02T19:10:34Z")
Yeah, or diesel trucks ‘coal rolling’ cyclists. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/99 "2024-12-02T22:19:50Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In addition to the above issue (which I brought up earlier in the thread), I’ve never seen a thing about how they expect to enforce this. Probably by taking the next step and declaring that since it can’t be told by sight who the “threat” is, the transgendered all need to be taken into custody in the name of public safety until some other solution is found. I’m sure they’ll have no issue coming up with a Final Solution to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/100 "2024-12-02T22:39:25Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m apparently screwing up somehow. If you want to (not required) it might be useful to me to tell me how. No, you’re good; you haven’t said anything bad at all. 🙂 I wish more people were like you. Overall this thread is for analyzing the thought processes of transphobes, where trans people are the perpetual “other.” Only a few posts have empathized with what it’s like to live as a trans person under these circumstances. If yous could put yourselves in my place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=6)