# Is Trans fear driven by a fear of being deceived? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2024, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837 "2024-11-27T03:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/141 "2024-12-04T08:44:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > An example: > > Go to the Steppenwolf Theater in Chicago to see a play (it’s well regarded and while not big it is not small either). All bathrooms are unisex. And one big bathroom at that. Everyone uses a stall. Men and women in the same room. > > Magically it all works out fine. I’ve been to restaurants that have the same policy. And while it may _appear_ fine to us from our male perspective, do we know for certain whether or not women would be more comfortable having their own space? Has anyone asked? I’m not sure what this isolated example is meant to prove. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/142 "2024-12-04T08:46:09Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Do you believe that we should abolish single sex spaces altogether, and just have communal toilets and communal locker rooms that all men and women can use? Within reason, and where possible, of course. When I was a kid and my dad was working at our municipal pool I got to roam the place and discovered, much to my envy, that the women got private changing rooms and showers while the men’s was not only communal, with no private areas, the showers were arranged in a fucking circle with the shower heads in the center. One might guess which one was preferable to a shy, prepubescent boy. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/143 "2024-12-04T08:49:31Z")
There is no shortage of women attending shows. I’d think if they were worried about men in the bathroom they’d stop going and the theater would take note of it and change the bathroom arrangements. But, it seems to work just fine. It might be said that men are one of the leading causes of death for women. Certainly men can be rapists. That says nothing about transwomen unless you think men are transitioning to be able to better be pervy/rapey on women. Never say never but mostly that is not the case (and men in drag are not trans). ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/144 "2024-12-04T08:57:26Z")
The trouble with communal locker rooms is that they definitely increase women’s chances of being sexually assaulted: [Cite](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html) A small minority of men make communal changing rooms untenable. I don’t know if there’s similar data for communal toilets, but the precautionary principle should apply; anyone wanting communal mixed sex toilets should need to prove that they present no increased risk to women. These spaces exist because women absolutely need them for their own safety. Now, _my_ point is simply that if you want transwomen to have access to those spaces then you need to make the positive case for why transwomen are women. Saying “They just are and anyone who disagrees is a bigot” (which is the official position of this very board, as I understand it) just won’t get you very far. It’s not a persuasive message. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/145 "2024-12-04T09:00:25Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > These spaces exist because women absolutely need them for their own safety. But, apparently, according to you, not the women that are trans men. Their safety isn’t even a part of the discussion. And the laws are not being written to give them the option that you propose they should follow. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/146 "2024-12-04T09:04:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That says nothing about transwomen unless you think men are transitioning to be able to better be pervy/rapey on women. Never say never but mostly that is not the case (and men in drag are not trans). It only says nothing about transwomen _if_ transwomen are women. But that’s the case you need to make. The position on the progressive left (and this was my entire point all along) is that transwomen are obviously women and anyone who disagrees is either an ignorant bigot or a hateful bigot. That’s a false dilemma. The third option is that the progressive left just haven’t made a sustained, persuasive case that transwomen are women. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/147 "2024-12-04T09:04:57Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > But, apparently, according to you, not the women that are trans men. Their safety isn’t even a part of the discussion. And the laws are not being written to give them the option that you propose they should follow. Sorry, this isn’t clear to me. Could you elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/148 "2024-12-04T09:15:21Z")
You said this person, [![](https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/2330097/transgender-boxer.webp?w=790&f=7ace24ce7801e692707f1ccfbf257f9e) ](https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/2330097/transgender-boxer.webp?w=790&f=7ace24ce7801e692707f1ccfbf257f9e) should, be forced I guess, to use the men’s facilities with all the increased risk of being sexually assaulted that that clearly has, despite AFAIK, having a vagina. And we have already seen cis women harassed and arrested for using the facilities that their supposed to be safe in. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/149 "2024-12-04T09:18:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Where you’re being a bit inconsiderately careless, AFAICT, is in using the term “transwomen” to refer to transgender women. Everybody knows and acknowledges that transgender women are different from cisgender women in a number of ways (as are transgender men from cisgender men). But if you’re refusing to acknowledge transgender people’s identity even to the minimal extent of using their generally preferred descriptor to refer to them, then you are conforming to the discourse norms of transphobic bigotry. I thought transwoman was the preferred nomenclature. If transgender woman is the preferred term then I’m happy to use that. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/150 "2024-12-04T09:20:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This seems vague. > > Can you clarify? @Miller is claiming a belief is bigoted with zero justification. It isn’t even similar to the other beliefs he cited. Why should anyone accept that it’s bigoted just because he says so? It doesn’t even fit the dictionary definition. More broadly, why should society hand the power to unilaterally decide what beliefs are taboo to a small group of progressive activists? They aren’t smarter or more moral than any other group, and are evidently using it to try and advance their preferred political program. It is foolish for society to allow this. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/151 "2024-12-04T09:25:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > More broadly, why should society hand the power to unilaterally decide what beliefs are taboo to a small group of progressive activists? They aren’t smarter or more moral than any other group, and are evidently using it to try and advance their preferred political program. It is foolish for society to allow this. Congrats on making Miller’s point with that paragraph that would be entirely at home in pre-desegregation America. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/152 "2024-12-04T09:25:51Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > You said this person, > > should, be forced I guess, to use the men’s facilities with all the increased risk of being sexually assaulted that that clearly has, despite AFAIK, having a vagina. > > And we have already seen cis women harassed and arrested for using the facilities that their supposed to be safe in. That person looks exactly like a man, and presumably wants to use the men’s toilets, right? So what’s wrong with him using the men’s toilets? I honestly don’t get your point here. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/153 "2024-12-04T09:27:44Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > I honestly don’t get your point here. Are the proposed laws being written with that accommodation in mind or are they being written to make it clear that what gender you were assigned at birth is your gender forever? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/154 "2024-12-04T09:52:30Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Congrats on making Miller’s point with that paragraph that would be entirely at home in pre-desegregation America. To be clear, you are advocating that we all stop thinking for ourselves and allow a random group of self-selected political activists to decide what is right and wrong on our behalf? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/155 "2024-12-04T09:55:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > To be clear, you are advocating that we all stop thinking for ourselves and allow a random group of self-selected political activists to decide what is right and wrong on our behalf? When the “random group of self-selected political activists” _are in the right,_ yes. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/156 "2024-12-04T09:56:53Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > To be clear, you are advocating that we all stop thinking for ourselves and allow a random group of self-selected political activists to decide what is right and wrong on our behalf? Why change the way we’ve been deciding what is right and wrong for tens of thousands of years now? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/157 "2024-12-04T09:59:42Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > To be clear, you are advocating that we all stop thinking for ourselves and allow a random group of self-selected political activists to decide what is right and wrong on our behalf? Are you suggesting all viewpoints are equally valid? There is no right or wrong? There is no better or worse? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/158 "2024-12-04T10:02:34Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Why change the way we’ve been deciding what is right and wrong for tens of thousands of years now? You’re a conservative now? I don’t believe in priesthoods. The freedom to think for oneself is arguably the most fundamental one we have. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/159 "2024-12-04T10:05:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The freedom to think for oneself is arguably the most fundamental one we have. Which doesn’t make someone who is wrong any less wrong. The freedom to step off a cliff doesn’t repeal gravity. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837/160 "2024-12-04T10:08:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The freedom to step off a cliff doesn’t repeal gravity. I’ve seen far too many folks that ‘think for oneself’ tell me that gravity isn’t real to think that most folks actually have the capacity to think in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trans-fear-driven-by-a-fear-of-being-deceived/1010837.md?page=9)