# Is Trump an Asset of Russia (Or Some Other Foreign Power)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425 "2019-10-07T16:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/81 "2019-10-08T22:31:15Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > [FinCEN Fines Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort $10 Million for Significant and Long Standing Anti-Money Laundering Violations](https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-fines-trump-taj-mahal-casino-resort-10-million-significant-and-long) _yawn_ > [@](#): > > The Trump Organization is a group of approximately 500 business entities of which Donald Trump is the sole or principal owner. … > > The Trump Organization, through its various constituent companies and partnerships, has or has had interests in real estate development, investing, brokerage, sales and marketing, and property management. Trump Organization entities own, operate, invest in, and develop residential real estate, hotels, resorts, residential towers, and golf courses in various countries. They also operate or have operated in construction, hospitality, casinos, entertainment, book and magazine publishing, broadcast media, model management, retail, financial services, food and beverages, business education, online travel, commercial and private aviation and beauty pageants. Trump Organization entities also own a New York television production company that produced the reality television franchise The Apprentice. Retail operations include or have included fashion apparel, jewelry and accessories, books, home furnishings, lighting products, bath textiles and accessories, bedding, home fragrance products, small leather goods, vodka, wine, barware, steaks, chocolate bars, and bottled spring water. You want to turn some record-keeping errors and reporting failures at one of those entities into “strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles”. I’m unconvinced. Most large organizations are going to have paperwork errors and code violations. It happens, and it’s usually not taken as evidence of some criminal conspiracy on the part of the owners, most of whom aren’t involved at the day-to-day operations level where they’re even aware of these sort of things usually. But of course, in this case, the owner is President Trump, and so partisan hatred demands that “orange man bad” must press on and insist that he personally did the dirty deed. _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/82 "2019-10-08T22:43:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > _yawn_ > > You want to turn some record-keeping errors and reporting failures at one of those entities into “strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles”. I’m unconvinced. Most large organizations are going to have paperwork errors and code violations. It happens, and it’s usually not taken as evidence of some criminal conspiracy on the part of the owners, most of whom aren’t involved at the day-to-day operations level where they’re even aware of these sort of things usually. But of course, in this case, the owner is President Trump, and so partisan hatred demands that “orange man bad” must press on and insist that he personally did the dirty deed. _shrug_ Number one, what the fuck are you quoting and what does it have to do with anything? Number two, **the largest fine in the history of FinCen** was not given for paperwork errors or code violations. If you don’t consider a **ten million dollar fine** as evidence of wrongdoing, I’m not sure I can take your position seriously. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/83 "2019-10-08T23:03:25Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Number one, what the fuck are you quoting and what does it have to do with anything? … [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trump_Organization) > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > … Number two, **the largest fine in the history of FinCen** was not given for paperwork errors or code violations. … How confident are you about that “ **the largest fine in the history of FinCen** ” claim? [They issued a $75M fine against another casino a few months later](https://www.globalregulatoryenforcementlawblog.com/2015/06/articles/government-investigations/fincen-imposes-largest-ever-penalty-against-a-casino/), and [they issued a $110M fine a couple of years ago against BTC-e](https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-fines-btc-e-virtual-currency-exchange-110-million-facilitating-ransomware). Check your facts. > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > … If you don’t consider a **ten million dollar fine** as evidence of wrongdoing, I’m not sure I can take your position seriously. I never said I don’t consider it evidence of wrongdoing. I said I don’t think record-keeping errors and reporting failures are “strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles”, and that I don’t think all the mistakes of an organization that employs many thousands of people can be laid at the feet of its owner as if the owner personally committed them. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/84 "2019-10-09T02:00:04Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > This is one of the things where I smacked my head and said to myself “Well of course.” > > What’s the best way to give money to a hotel owner if you want to gain favor as well as keep it above board? You reserve a bunch of rooms, then don’t use them. > > [https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/02/trump-hotel-empty-rooms-016763](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/02/trump-hotel-empty-rooms-016763) This is exactly why the Constitution has an emoluments clause. He is not only using his properties to receive bribes, he also has US agencies spend money at his properties. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/85 "2019-10-09T04:07:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How confident are you about that “ **the largest fine in the history of FinCen** ” claim? It was the largest fine in the history of FinCEN at the time it was issued. Pointless nitpick. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I said I don’t think record-keeping errors and reporting failures are “strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles”, and that I don’t think all the mistakes of an organization that employs many thousands of people can be laid at the feet of its owner as if the owner personally committed them. The fine was not issued for record-keeping errors. It was issued for, “significant and long standing anti-money laundering violations,” and things that last for over a decade and result in ten million dollar fines can absolutely be laid at the feet of the owner. There’s no blaming Rick Perry for this one. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/86 "2019-10-09T13:57:59Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > LOL, your second quoted post literally denies the House Foreign Affairs Committee’s letter on what is happening, and then you accuse me of making a “false implication” that you know better than Chairman Engle? My second quote (and the others as well) are accurate. The links I read, and the one I gave here, didn’t mention Trump’s motivation. I made no claims about knowing better than Engle. Seriously, WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/87 "2019-10-09T14:03:29Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > And you have been given what you are looking for. > > People people believe Trump may be being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers because his actions are indistinguishable from someone who is being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers. Agreed, I have been given reasons and that’s all good. But even assuming his actions are like someone who is being blackmailed doesn’t mean he is actually being blackmailed. Would you agree with that? ETA: I ask because your use of the word “indistinguishable” suggests, only suggests so please correct me if I’m wrong, that you are fairly sure this is happening. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/88 "2019-10-09T14:21:39Z")
That seems a bizarre interpretation of the word _indistinguishable_ eh. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/89 "2019-10-09T14:29:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That seems a bizarre interpretation of the word _indistinguishable_ eh. Sure. I’ll accept that. Hence the “suggest” part. Just trying to understand precisely what Lance is saying. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/90 "2019-10-09T14:38:45Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Agreed, I have been given reasons and that’s all good. But even assuming his actions are like someone who is being blackmailed doesn’t mean he is actually being blackmailed. Would you agree with that? I’m going to say this is a distinction without a difference. If he is behaving as if he’s being blackmailed, then he needs to be investigated as if he’s being blackmailed. It doesn’t matter if there’s an explicit written blackmail contract. He’s acting as if he is being coerced by foreign powers. That’s enough to use blackmail as an operating assumption and figure out the details in a congressional or criminal investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/91 "2019-10-09T14:38:53Z")
My two cents on the money laundering: Regarding the FinCEN link: It is clearly evidence of money laundering crimes/violations. It is not evidence of the laundering of rubles. Rubles aren’t even mentioned. The CNN link says > [@](#): > > “Taj Mahal was the preferred gambling spot for Russian mobsters living in Brooklyn, according to federal investigators who tracked organized crime in New York City. They also occurred at a time when the Taj Mahal casino was short on cash and on the verge of bankruptcy.” This suggests (weakly, IMO) that rubles may have been laundered. But let’s just say if this were presented in a court of law, I’m not sure the judge would allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/92 "2019-10-09T14:41:08Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’m going to say this is a distinction without a difference. If he is behaving as if he’s being blackmailed, then he needs to be investigated as if he’s being blackmailed. > > It doesn’t matter if there’s an explicit written blackmail contract. He’s acting as if he is being coerced by foreign powers. That’s enough to use blackmail as an operating assumption and figure out the details in a congressional or criminal investigation. I generally agree with this. I’m not exactly sure what your standard of “behaving as if he’s being blackmailed” entails, but that is for the person charged with doing the investigating to decide. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/93 "2019-10-09T14:44:59Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > I think he does understand. He wants hotels in Russia so he’ll help Putin’s agenda. It’s quid pro quo just without actually saying those words. Which is how mobsters operate. Instinctively they understand that everything they do is prosecutable unless they have plausible deniability of intent. That’s why they hide everything they do, and communicate via jokes, hints, insinuations, vague meanings, and symbolic gestures, even for stuff that doesn’t really need concealing. That’s why we’re unlikely to see any explicit “quid pro quo”. That’s why we need transparency and professional investigators to discover the facts of the case and construct intent. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/94 "2019-10-09T14:51:02Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Agreed, I have been given reasons and that’s all good. But even assuming his actions are like someone who is being blackmailed doesn’t mean he is actually being blackmailed. Would you agree with that? ETA: I ask because your use of the word “indistinguishable” suggests, only suggests so please correct me if I’m wrong, that you are fairly sure this is happening. I already stated I see no significant difference between these situations, but it’s not just a binary choice either. Suppose Putin is not blackmailing Trump but Trump is afraid that Putin will because he is compromised. It’s tacit blackmail, unspoken in the mob style that Trump uses, and I’m sure Putin understands and uses outside of Russia where he can get away with anything. You don’t need to commit a crime to be guilty of a conspiracy, nothing need change hands to establish a quid pro quo, and you may care about intentions at an emotional level but when it comes to national security and what we should do to protect it then there is no difference between malfeasance, misfeasance, and nonfeasance, we need to put an end to it and then the talking heads can spend the rest of their lives arguing about which it is. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/95 "2019-10-09T15:21:00Z")
Well said. The most important thing is to stop such as you mentioned from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/96 "2019-10-09T15:43:53Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > This suggests (weakly, IMO) that rubles may have been laundered. But let’s just say if this were presented in a court of law, I’m not sure the judge would allow it. That’s just one article. A quick search also brings up [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/manafort-trump-putin-russia-mafia-strzok-fbi-1076582) and [the Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trumps-businesses-are-full-of-dirty-russian-money-the-scandal-is-thats-legal/2019/03/29/11b812da-5171-11e9-88a1-ed346f0ec94f_story.html). ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/97 "2019-10-09T15:55:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That seems a bizarre interpretation of the word _indistinguishable_ eh. Concur. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/98 "2019-10-09T16:03:39Z")
Here’s a post of mine from the thread mentioned earlier that touched on Trump money laundering. > [@Trump's ongoing collusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trumps-ongoing-collusion/809196/55): > > More on money laundering… > > Maybe Trump is innocent, but there sure does appear to be an awful lot of money laundering going on in buildings with Trump’s name on them. > > [Trump’s Russian Laundromat](https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate) > > It’s a long article and worth a read. Here’s a sample paragraph… > > > [@](#): > > > > But even without an investigation by Congress or a special prosecutor, there is much we already know about the president’s debt to Russia. A review of the public record reveals a clear and disturbing pattern: Trump owes much of his business success, and by extension his presidency, to a flow of highly suspicious money from Russia. Over the past three decades, at least 13 people with known or alleged links to Russian mobsters or oligarchs have owned, lived in, and even run criminal activities out of Trump Tower and other Trump properties. Many used his apartments and casinos to launder untold millions in dirty money. Some ran a worldwide high-stakes gambling ring out of Trump Tower—in a unit directly below one owned by Trump. Others provided Trump with lucrative branding deals that required no investment on his part. Taken together, the flow of money from Russia provided Trump with a crucial infusion of financing that helped rescue his empire from ruin, burnish his image, and launch his career in television and politics. “They saved his bacon,” says Kenneth McCallion, a former assistant U.S. attorney in the Reagan administration who investigated ties between organized crime and Trump’s developments in the 1980s. > > Besides that article there’s also this guy who may know what he’s talking about. “You realize where this is going. This is all about money laundering. Mueller chose [senior prosecutor Andrew] Weissmann first and he is a money-laundering guy. Their path to f\*\*\*ing Trump goes right through Paul Manafort, Don Jr., and Jared Kushner. . . . It’s as plain as a hair on your face,” Wolff quotes Bannon saying. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/99 "2019-10-09T16:09:08Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > That’s just one article. A quick search also brings up [Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/manafort-trump-putin-russia-mafia-strzok-fbi-1076582) and [the Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trumps-businesses-are-full-of-dirty-russian-money-the-scandal-is-thats-legal/2019/03/29/11b812da-5171-11e9-88a1-ed346f0ec94f_story.html). From the Washington Post link: > [@](#): > > I’m no fan of Putin’s, but he was right about one thing: Swaths of American society are corrupt. If we want to protect our most precious institutions, we should examine new regulations in a wide range of sectors. The House Intelligence Committee, the House Oversight Committee and the House Judiciary Committee have geared up for hearings and investigations. They had better move fast. We have a president who has a long, tangled history with figures connected to Russian organized crime — all of it, apparently, perfectly legal. If what Unger says in his article is true, the saddest part about the whole thing is that it’s perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425/100 "2019-10-09T16:10:37Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Concur. Got it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-an-asset-of-russia-or-some-other-foreign-power/841425.md?page=6)