# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/181 "2018-07-19T22:32:26Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Gosh, IANAL, but the part of your statement I bolded doesn’t seem to be settled law by any means. > > [Lawfare Blog, Does an FBI Investigation Qualify Under Obstruction of Justice Statutes](https://www.lawfareblog.com/does-fbi-investigation-qualify-under-obstruction-justice-statutes-closer-look)? From your link: > [@](#): > > All that said, the “pending proceeding” question certain makes criminal prosecution of the President—which was already exceedingly unlikely—even more unlikely. We elaborated on the reasons why you should not expect Trump to be frog-marched out of the White House any time soon in this prior analysis: The substance of that article suggests some avenues that the existing law might be stretched, but concludes - correctly - that this would be a stretch, and not likely to succeed if tried. (Fun fact: the Kelley case, which I quoted in my immediately prior post, and your link did as well, was a 1993 case involving bribery and fraud. The attorney for the United States was . . . drum roll . . . Merrick Garland!) > [@](#): > > And anyway, isn’t Trump subject to impeachment proceedings? Haven’t you more than once asserted that a sitting president can’t be indicted, and wouldn’t your argument apply only to regular criminal proceedings? Yes, and yes! Trump is absolutely subject to impeachment proceedings, and for that proceeding, Congress is legally free to decide that his conduct is obstructive of justice, regardless of what the law might say. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/182 "2018-07-19T22:37:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sure it is a fair statement but do not forget Trump also called them a “foe”. > > Remember that Obama and Bush also asked NATO to spend more on their military but when they came home neither had incurred the distrust of our allies as Trump has. Right. Because he’s a dope, and not in the good “Straight,” way. I’m just pushing back on the assertion that “Trump = traitor,” is a statement of provable objective fact somehow, as well as the tendency to toss the word around without defining its specifics. But as a matter of personal reckoning, his foreign policy has trended between “disaster,” and “merely horrible screwup.” I just recognize it’s personal reckoning, and not immutable fact. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/183 "2018-07-19T22:39:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, and yes! Trump is absolutely subject to impeachment proceedings, and for that proceeding, Congress is legally free to decide that his conduct is obstructive of justice, regardless of what the law might say. If Congress can reasonably declare that trump is a traitor based on current evidence, I figure I can too, right? I’m not a lawyer after all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/184 "2018-07-19T22:57:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If Congress can reasonably declare that trump is a traitor based on current evidence, I figure I can too, right? I’m not a lawyer after all. Sure. But that gets back to my original question: > [@Bricker](#): > > Can someone define, specifically, what they believe it means to be a traitor? For Congress to impeach Trump, the House has to pass, by simple majority, one or more articles of impeachment. And they must lay out the specific accusation. As a matter of tradition, they would cite violations of law, but they don’t have to. But they do have to define what, specifically, they’re alleging. Which is exactly what I asked above: when you say Trump is a traitor, can you define, specifically, what you believe it means to be a traitor? You’re certainly free to abandon the legal realm to do so. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/185 "2018-07-19T23:12:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. But that gets back to my original question: > > For Congress to impeach Trump, the House has to pass, by simple majority, one or more articles of impeachment. And they must lay out the specific accusation. As a matter of tradition, they would cite violations of law, but they don’t have to. But they do have to define what, specifically, they’re alleging. > > Which is exactly what I asked above: when you say Trump is a traitor, can you define, specifically, what you believe it means to be a traitor? You’re certainly free to abandon the legal realm to do so. Generally speaking, to be a traitor (to our country) is to collude with an enemy country to engage in acts which are intended to be detrimental to our country or to be beneficial to the enemy country at the expense of our country. The fact that the enemy country is colluding to make these detrimental acts happen is itself sufficient to define it as an enemy country for the purposes of this definition. Note that the acts don’t have to be successfully carried out; colluding with intent to betray alone is sufficient. Note that the ‘collude’ part is important, legal aboveboard negotiations do not suggest traitorous behavior, even if they involve concessions on the part of our country. Legal actions taken based on covert backroom deals with enemies, on the other hand, do risk this categorization. Note that I said “risk”. The actual assignation of this label is subject to the judgment of the judging party, based on an analysis of both intent and consequences. And yes, a sufficiently biased/bribed judging party could judge the supposed traitor as innocent regardless of the facts. But isn’t that always the way? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/186 "2018-07-20T00:15:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Does that phrase suggest the OP is not speaking of metaphorical traitoring, but specific, definable traitoring? I’ve been good with that all along. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/187 "2018-07-20T00:21:48Z")
The legal profession has as much of an exclusive claim on the word “traitor” as the profession of electrical engineers has on the word “current.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/188 "2018-07-20T00:40:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Legal actions taken based on covert backroom deals with enemies, on the other hand, do risk this categorization. > > Note that I said “risk”. The actual assignation of this label is subject to the judgment of the judging party, based on an analysis of both intent and consequences. And yes, a sufficiently biased/bribed judging party could judge the supposed traitor as innocent regardless of the facts. But isn’t that always the way? What would be your reaction to someone who called FDR a traitor for violating the Neutrality Acts in the 1930s by illegally assisting the United Kingdom in the hostilities against Germany? I assume you’d disagree, but would you say that he had a point, just one you didn’t share? Or would you say he was absolutely without justification? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/189 "2018-07-20T01:20:24Z")
Are we equating Putin’s regime to prewar Britain? For that matter, are we seriously equating the domestic laws of an isolationist USA, which did not treat the UK in specific as adversarial, to the obligations of the USA to NATO now? OK, you know, let’s say we do. Fine. I will stipulate that FDR was guilty of treason, by offering aid and comfort to our adversary, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. He subverted our democracy and put our forces under the Windsor king. Hang him in effigy, then. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/190 "2018-07-20T01:32:43Z")
In fact, let’s take it further. Let’s say that Trump is the new FDR, a People’s Hero who is reinventing the USA. Let’s say that he is remaking the world order, with a new axis of America and Russia, and the old alliances will fall away. The USA will become as tight with the Kremlin as it is with Westminster now. As the old isolationists saw their order betrayed and replaced with a \*new \*patriotic order, so too will the old believers in Western democracy see our order betrayed and replaced with a new patriotic order around kleptocracy and the raw exercise of power. Presumably the free press will be decimated and de facto one party rule instituted to protect the new regime. This new postwar order will be the new reality for up to three future generations. The American people will be propagandized that “Russia is our friend!” And presumably Europe will pay tribute on a grand scale to Putin and to…to Trump? He’s not going to be around to profit from it. Is this smart? Is this sustainable? Is Trump even equipped to do it? It is sometimes said that the Central Intelligence Agency became a tool of _UK_ foreign policy. See the coup in Iran in 1953. How much of the USA will an old fool turn into a tool of Kremlin? Trump is not as savvy as Roosevelt, Truman, or Eisenhower. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/191 "2018-07-20T01:40:14Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Trump is not as savvy as Roosevelt, Truman, or Eisenhower. He’s roughly as savvy as Truman’s left sock. But the right one overmatches him. ---
**Author:** ![Haldurson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/51bf81/32.png) [@Haldurson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haldurson)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/192 "2018-07-20T02:02:57Z")
If you are having difficulty understanding how Trump thinks, read the following. If you believe this article, he’s actually acting in his own best interests, due to loans from Russia, that were funneled/laundered through Deutsche Bank. [Is Donald Trump's Dark Russian Secret Hiding in Deutsche Bank's Vaults?](https://www.newsweek.com/2017/12/29/donald-trump-russia-secret-deutsche-bank-753780.html) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/193 "2018-07-20T02:07:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What would be your reaction to someone who called FDR a traitor for violating the Neutrality Acts in the 1930s by illegally assisting the United Kingdom in the hostilities against Germany? Well, a good number of them were judged by history as being antisemite or Nazi sympathizers. So I’m not sure that you want to use that example. [http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p/jpj1/hoods.htm](http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p/jpj1/hoods.htm) > [@](#): > > However, new opportunities raised the prospect that the extremists might still be able to secure a mass audience for their views. The intervention issue was central to national politics from the Fall of 1939, with the lifting of the arms embargo, and subsequent debates over the supply of weapons to Britain, and the Lend-Lease debate of early 1941 (25). Isolationism was the perfect unity issue for the rightist groups themselves, a cause on which all sides could agree. All concurred that pressure for war stemmed from Jewish influence, and thus anti-war sentiment could be mobilized in anti-semitic and anti-Communist directions. Philadelphia Bund leader Sigmund von Bosse framed the war question quite simply: “The main lineup is not democracy versus fascism, but fascism versus Communism, and here our choice is clear” (26). The same themes pervaded Moseley’s speech at the Bellevue Stratford. Christian Front leaflets in Philadelphia advised “Keep America Out of War. Rosenvelt [sic] and his Jewish supporters are trying to have Christians fight their battles” (27). In the Fall of 1939, Christian Front units in Pittsburgh were mobilizing telegrams and letters to oppose repeal of the Neutrality Act. The targets of the alleged Front conspiracy in New York city included those Congressmen who voted for repeal of the arms embargo (28). > > From this perspective, Lend-Lease was nothing short of “treachery”, leaving the United States “as helpless as Lenin could have wished” (29). To quote Bessie Burchett, “The men who might defend their homes against communists are being drafted, some are being sent out of the country while locust hordes of aliens are still coming in to take their jobs . . . . Is it not significant that the men who have rushed England into this suicidal war are predominantly not of Anglo-Saxon stock? And that in our own Administration, the men who are pushing us relentlessly towards the same bottomless abyss are not of English or traditional American blood?” (30). This foreshadowed the ruin or extermination of ”the white race, white Christian civilization” (33). The “Draft Bill” was a “Dictator Bill” (31). Roosevelt was plotting to abdicate American sovereignty to British imperial and financial suzerainty (32). Russian entry into the war in June 1941 made matters starker: “If we had only kept clear of England’s war, we should now be clear of England’s evil ally” (33). All this was the consequence of ignoring “the expert advice of our great Colonel Lindbergh” (34). > [@Bricker](#): > > I assume you’d disagree, but would you say that he had a point, just one you didn’t share? Or would you say he was absolutely without justification? It was a point alright, but reckless, if it had succeeded America would likely gone to war with no strong allies, it has to be noted that Trump follows the example of those isolationists. Too close, I have to say. > **[A Short History of 'America First'](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/trump-america-first/514037/)** > > The phrase used by President Trump has been linked to anti-Semitism during World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/194 "2018-07-20T02:22:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right. Because he’s a dope, and not in the good “Straight,” way. Does being a dope insulate him from accusations of treason? Or rather, if you commit a treasonous act out of stupidity are you off the hook for treason? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/195 "2018-07-20T02:37:15Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Since when do liberals think being a traitor a bad thing? When Chelsea Manning released classified government secrets as a part of the military to the Russian intelligence site Wikileaks, she was pardoned by Obama. Edward Snowden also released classified secrets to Russian intelligence and Bernie Sanders said he did a great service. When Chelsea Manning leaked classified information to the Russians, she was arrested, tried, and convicted. When Edward Snowden leaked classified information to the Russians, he had to flee to Russia to avoid being arrested. I don’t see any evidence that the Obama administration was soft on treason or espionage. Do you really want to invite comparisons with how Trump is handling Russia? Hell, do you really want to invite comparisons with how the Bush administration handled the Plame investigation or how the Reagan administration handled the Walker investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/196 "2018-07-20T02:47:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Does being a dope insulate him from accusations of treason? > > Or rather, if you commit a treasonous act out of stupidity are you off the hook for treason? This is the way I see it. I’ve said before that I feel the main reason why the Russians assisted Trump was because they felt Russia would benefit if the United States was weakened by incompetent leadership. Trump being dumb was all they expected. Any direct assistance from Trump would just be a bonus. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/197 "2018-07-20T10:43:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Since when do liberals think being a traitor a bad thing? When Chelsea Manning released classified government secrets as a part of the military to the Russian intelligence site Wikileaks, she was pardoned by Obama. Edward Snowden also released classified secrets to Russian intelligence and Bernie Sanders said he did a great service. I’m glad to see you admit the criminal case against Trump is as serious as the ones against Manning or Snowden. I look forward to Trump ending up in prison or being forced to take refuge in some dumpy embassy where he isn’t allowed to gold-plate the fixtures. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/198 "2018-07-20T12:19:56Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Since when do liberals think being a traitor a bad thing? When Chelsea Manning released classified government secrets as a part of the military to the Russian intelligence site Wikileaks, she was pardoned by Obama. Edward Snowden also released classified secrets to Russian intelligence and Bernie Sanders said he did a great service. Obama did not pardon Manning, he granted clemency. A pardon absolves the person of the crime, but clemency means that he just commuted her sentence after seven years. Her sentence was 35 years, unprecedented for anyone else who had been convicted of a comparable crime. The difference between what Snowden did and what Trump did is that Snowden was exposing actions of the U.S. government against its own people, violating the constitutional prohibition against unreasonable search and seizure. This is why he received some liberal support. However, Snowden would certainly face criminal charges if he returned home, and he was not pardoned. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/199 "2018-07-20T14:47:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > In fact, let’s take it further. > > Let’s say that Trump is the new FDR, a People’s Hero who is reinventing the USA. Let’s say that he is remaking the world order, with a new axis of America and Russia, and the old alliances will fall away. The USA will become as tight with the Kremlin as it is with Westminster now. > > As the old isolationists saw their order betrayed and replaced with a \*new \*patriotic order, so too will the old believers in Western democracy see our order betrayed and replaced with a new patriotic order around kleptocracy and the raw exercise of power. Presumably the free press will be decimated and de facto one party rule instituted to protect the new regime. > > This new postwar order will be the new reality for up to three future generations. The American people will be propagandized that “Russia is our friend!” And presumably Europe will pay tribute on a grand scale to Putin and to…to Trump? He’s not going to be around to profit from it. > > Is this smart? Is this sustainable? Is Trump even equipped to do it? > > It is sometimes said that the Central Intelligence Agency became a tool of _UK_ foreign policy. See the coup in Iran in 1953. > > How much of the USA will an old fool turn into a tool of Kremlin? Trump is not as savvy as Roosevelt, Truman, or Eisenhower. This would be a terrifying scenario if Trump weren’t such an idiot. If he actually has something like this in mind (doubtful, because he never thinks more than one tweet ahead), his clumsiness would expose his intentions long before he could bring anything to fruition. Then again, you could argue he’s already setting these wheels in motion – even accidentally – and the people whom we elect to prevent such a thing are sitting on their hands. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/200 "2018-07-20T14:51:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Does being a dope insulate him from accusations of treason? > > Or rather, if you commit a treasonous act out of stupidity are you off the hook for treason? Well, perhaps, but you should be drummed out of office anyway just for teh stupid. The 25th amendment would serve nicely but I’m not holding my breath that’s gonna happen with the current cabinet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=11)