# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/301 "2018-07-22T22:39:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Could you elaborate on what you perceive the issue to be there? Adults use normal spelling, capitalization, and punctuation. What is your problem? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/302 "2018-07-22T22:41:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Where are you cites that the President has "betrayed the United States? > > Again, a factual cite, not your opinion. #295. I don’t know how you missed it. You even quoted and replied to it. And I am still curious as to what you think the problem with my caps lock is. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/303 "2018-07-22T22:50:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > #295. I don’t know how you missed it. You even quoted and replied to it. > > And I am still curious as to what you think the problem with my caps lock is. Post #295 is not a cite. Your opinion is not a cite. As far as the caps lock thing, the names of people and countries are capitalized. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/304 "2018-07-22T23:09:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, does anyone think Trump is a traitor? I gather for some the answer is “arguably” and for some others, “arguagly not.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/305 "2018-07-22T23:13:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > As far as the caps lock thing, the names of people and countries are capitalized. Using the caps lock to capitalize initial letters is inefficient, assuming the typist is not limited in some fashion to using a single finger at a time. I gather you meant to suggest a problem with the shift keys. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/306 "2018-07-22T23:16:14Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So no cites. In my opinion, Great Debates should be about facts, not random opinions. You appear to have Great Debates confused with General Questions. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Where are you cites that the President has "betrayed the United States? > > Again, a factual cite, not your opinion. Again, you appear to have Great Debates confused with General Questions. In GD, we present _ **factual evidence** _ to _ **substantiate opinions and conclusions** _ on matters in which interpretations of facts and opinions may differ. We stand or fall based on the strength of the evidence we bring forward. **k9bfriender** has presented, in post #295 and elsewhere, substantial evidence in support of his argument. Instead of addressing the argument you’ve deflected to a nonsensical demand for an impossible “cite” to the conclusion itself. You’re evading debate instead of engaging in it and you’re certainly not arguing in good faith. You’ve presented lots of one-liners and snark, but no actual argument, and your position here is therefore worthless. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/307 "2018-07-23T00:25:04Z")
Post #295 didn’t provide any evidence at all, merely opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/308 "2018-07-23T00:59:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How do they normally shut people up? McConnell shut up Warren. Ryan refuses to allow debate on things that he doesn’t want debate on. Do I know the specifics of how it is done? Nah. But I see it happening, and what exact arcane justifications that they use is less important than the fact that they use them. You are confused, I think, between stopping someone from introducing legislation or moving it to a vote – which, indeed, the Speaker and Senate presiding officer can go – and merely stopping someone from literally speaking, which they generally cannot, at least to the extent of saying a list of names. So what you think you see happening is not sufficient for stopping a list of names being read. I’d be happy to cite specific House and/or Senate rules if you like. > [@](#): > > Okay, what is your definition of when someone’s voice is denied? We can go with that. My definition is when the government prevents you from voting. Hey, that’s mine, too! But I suspect you’d say the government “prevents” someone from voting when they require a photo ID before a vote may be cast. I don’t say that. > [@](#): > > We are not in the pit thread on voter ID here, and you are making assumptions as to what I consider to be disenfranchisement with no basis whatsoever. I presented a hypothetical, in which the govt had explicitly denied the right to vote, and you came back calling it hyperbole and disagreeing that I had a right to talk about it. Wait, what? In the Pit, you call Voter ID laws “preventing a vote,” but here you don’t? That can’t be accurate. Please help me unravel my confusion. > [@](#): > > Far more than 1% of the citizens of the united states cannot vote due to felony convictions, yet I see no squealing from you. This is one of the groups that doesn’t concern you. True. Just as a felony conviction imposes a loss of freedom, a loss of Second Amendment rights, and numerous other collateral consequences, so too does it impinge on the right to vote. You’re right: that doesn’t bother me. But I concede that it’s very fair to call this group disenfranchised: they cannot legally vote. > [@](#): > > Nice little slam on liberals there, as if you _really_ believe that your fellow conservatives are focused on the process and rules, while accusing liberals of ignoring them. I admit there are many conservatives who are results-driven, but I certainly genuinely believe the liberals amongst us are far more so. Liberals have embraced the judicial philosophy of a “living, breathing Constitution;” conservatives more typically embrace a textualist approach. > [@](#): > > As has been explained many, many times, it is a desire to use the democratic process to change the process and rules so that our social contract is beneficial to all, rather than a suicide pact. > > If you see that the process and the rules lead to catastrophic results, would you not seek to change that process and rules, rather than follow them blindly to our doom? Sure. But (a) I see no catastrophe, and (b) even then I’d seek to change the rules by following the rules – that is, at the ballot box, not the judge’s bench. > [@](#): > > If it was because the very evil liberals had democratically taken control of the government, and passed a law that said that anyone who ever registered as a republican can no longer vote, would you respect those rules, or seek to change them? > > Turn that around, and say that your enlightened and noble conservatives take on enough clout to do deny the right to vote to anyone who had ever registered to vote as a democrat, would you work just as hard and diligently to change those rules? Yes, I certainly would. And that’s an example of something that would flout long-standing Constitutional protections derived FROM THE TEXT. Now, let’s imagine that those enlightened and noble conservatives garnered enough clout to amend the Constitution to accomplish that end. I’d still fight to change it - but not by asking the courts to scuttle it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/309 "2018-07-23T01:01:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Aren’t people being disenfranchised, even if the government is doing so in a legal manner? Disenfranchisement just means somebody loses the right to vote. So if a law is enacted that requires people to have a picture ID to vote, then people who were previously able to vote but do not have a picture ID are disenfranchised. No. No more so than if the government moves a polling place one block east, and someone says, “Fuck that, I’m not driving an extra block.” That’s not disenfranchisement – the barrier has to be an unreasonable one. The people without a picture ID can get a free one. That’s not disenfranchisement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/310 "2018-07-23T01:03:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say it would depend entirely on the reasons. I’m not a liberal, and so I focus on the process, the rules, not whether I don’t care for a given application’s results. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No you don’t. When McConnell decided Obama wasn’t entitled to nominate a Supreme Court Justice and so refused to hold hearings, you were fine with it on the grounds that you saw no substantial difference between turning down a nominee after a hearing and refusing to allow a nominee a hearing in the first place. Yes. Which was not violative any rules. I focus on the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/311 "2018-07-23T01:19:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > No more so than if the government moves a polling place one block east, and someone says, “Fuck that, I’m not driving an extra block.” That’s not disenfranchisement – the barrier has to be an unreasonable one. The people without a picture ID can get a free one. That’s not disenfranchisement. Right. And all black people had to do to vote was pass a literacy test. With a white election official deciding what constituted passing. I predict the same principle will apply with the new voting laws. Some people will find their new picture ID’s arrive on time and some people will find their new picture ID’s will somehow get delayed in the mail for a couple of weeks and arrive the day after the election. The purpose of these laws isn’t to eliminate voter fraud. Voter fraud barely exists in this country. These laws exist to make it possible for election officials to selectively place obstacles in the path of some people who are attempted to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/312 "2018-07-23T01:31:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So Bricker’s argument that voter ID laws are okay because a court ruled in their favor doesn’t have the closure that he’d like to claim it has. You can argue that a court made a bad decision just like you can argue that a legislature enacted a bad law. And people should work on reversing a bad decision just as they should work on repealing a bad law. That’s not the entirety of my argument: I argue Voter ID laws are valid because they were passed by the legislature, signed by the governor, AND upheld by the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/313 "2018-07-23T01:39:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Dispute any of those, then. I’ll cite them if you challenge them. > > Those are betrayals of our country, which is the definition of a traitor. No. You don’t have the power to declare what is a betrayal of our country, unless there is some objective standard – like aiding an enemy in time of war. IN YOUR OPINION, these are betrayals of what YOU’D LIKE TO THINK the ideals of our country are. Yes? Or do you offer some source that I agree with for a baseline of US interests and some source for a scale I accept that produces results of weighing those interests against other interests? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/314 "2018-07-23T01:41:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Right. And all black people had to do to vote was pass a literacy test. With a white election official deciding what constituted passing. And that was unacceptable, so we passed a law forbidding it. We didn’t eliminate literacy tests based on a declaration that the democratic process could not be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/315 "2018-07-23T02:54:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And that was unacceptable, so we passed a law forbidding it. We didn’t eliminate literacy tests based on a declaration that the democratic process could not be trusted. Literacy tests were established by laws. They were signed by governors. And they were upheld by courts. According to the argument you’ve presented in this thread, that means the final word had been said on them and everyone should have just accepted them. Fortunately, most people don’t accept your narrow legalistic definition of what’s right and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/316 "2018-07-23T09:25:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No. It isn’t that he is too dumb to be a traitor. It is that he doesn’t give a flying fuck whether he is a traitor, as long as he gets his. The man is immoral. I think he is more amoral than immoral. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/317 "2018-07-23T09:36:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And that was unacceptable, so we passed a law forbidding it. We didn’t eliminate literacy tests based on a declaration that the democratic process could not be trusted. And there is one party that is hell bent on dismantling that law bit by bit in order to maintain their illegitimate grip on power. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/318 "2018-07-23T10:34:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. Which was not violative any rules. I focus on the rules. Just like it’s not a violation of the rules for congress to refuse to seat any Supreme Court judge, sign any legislation, or extend the debt ceiling until the president wears a banana costume and farts the national anthem. If all you care about is what’s technically allowed… Well, I’ll kick your ass in Mario Kart by unplugging your controller. And more to the point, if all you focus on is “the rules”, we can write the American experiment off as failed, because our government’s rules are fundamentally broken if abused - like a Smash Bros tournament that allows Hyrule Temple. If you want to take it to its extremes, I’m sure it’s entirely possible to create an American single-party dictatorship without breaking a single rule. There’s a reason we care about norms. I wonder why you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/319 "2018-07-23T15:58:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > There’s a reason we care about norms. I wonder why you don’t. Because winning is everything regardless of how it is accomplished. As I’ve quoted before, “It’s hard to play chess when your opponent just belted you in the mouth.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/320 "2018-07-23T16:08:00Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I think he is more amoral than immoral. No. I studied his past history and read his book, and the man is _im_moral. He deliberately sets out ahead of time to cheat those he deals with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=17)