# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/21 "2018-07-18T17:47:38Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > No. He’s not acting on Russia’s behalf, and he’s not undermining the United States. Weird that you don’t think alienating your allies and destroying your state department doesn’t undermine your country. What effect will these things have, if not serve to undermine your country? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/22 "2018-07-18T17:48:53Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Why will nothing be done? > > The farce in Finland pretty clearly demonstrates where his interests lie. The Mueller probe may yet connect the dots. Faced with impossible-to-refute evidence of actual treason, will congress truly do nothing? Not “truly”, no. They’ll do nothing, but they’ll lie about it. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/23 "2018-07-18T17:53:19Z")
‘Traitor’ is, like ‘terrorist’, a word whose applicability, barring some real indisputable, grand and sinister behavior, is in the eye of the beholder, and is mostly meaningless. ‘Traitor’ is a marketing strategy, not a meaningful descriptor. Is Trump a traitor? Who knows? Who cares. Has he engaged in actions that are unadmirable, underhanded, and dishonest, at the expense of his fellow citizens? Yes. Has he done so in collaboration with people from other countries? Most likely. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/24 "2018-07-18T17:54:23Z")
How has he helped Russia out at all? Not only have the sanctions not been lifted, but new ones have been imposed. He just had a meeting with NATO where he demanded the other nations spend more money on defense to counteract Russia. He has also tried to get OPEC to lower the price of oil which the economy of Russia depends on. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/25 "2018-07-18T18:00:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I agree a lot with this, but I err toward concluding that incompetence, rather than malevolence, is the reason. I just can’t see that incompetence equates to treason. I do wonder if he was raised, guided and made who he is for this purpose. He doesn’t even seem to have a complete vocabulary, like certain aspects of a free mind was denied to him in terms that the language one uses relates to how they view their reality. If so I don’t know if it is treason, as this is all he ever knew how to do and thus not something he ever had a choice on. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/26 "2018-07-18T18:02:54Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How has he helped Russia out at all? Not only have the sanctions not been lifted, but new ones have been imposed. He just had a meeting with NATO where he demanded the other nations spend more money on defense to counteract Russia. He has also tried to get OPEC to lower the price of oil which the economy of Russia depends on. Trump only signed the sanctions bill because Congress would have overwhelmingly overridden his veto. And he’s pushing to re-admit Russia to the G7. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/27 "2018-07-18T18:04:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How has he helped Russia out at all? Not only have the sanctions not been lifted, but new ones have been imposed. He just had a meeting with NATO where he demanded the other nations spend more money on defense to counteract Russia. He has also tried to get OPEC to lower the price of oil which the economy of Russia depends on. He said some really dumb things. And then said even dumber things while trying to explain the dumb things he originally said. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/28 "2018-07-18T18:05:27Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > **Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country?** \*\* Well, let’s look at the [definition](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor): > [@](#): > > 1 : one who betrays another’s trust or is false to an obligation or duty > 2 : one who commits treason Etymology: > [@](#): > > Middle English traytour, from Anglo-French traitre, from Latin traditor, from tradere to hand over, deliver, betray, from trans-, tra- trans- + dare to give I’m going to go with the word having more to do with the general notion of betrayal than the specific crime of treason. And in that sense, hell yes. He’s playing for the other team, he is undermining America’s interests around the world, and he’s undermining Americans’ interests here at home. He’s a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/29 "2018-07-18T18:06:05Z")
Not a traitor - sadly he’s just a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/30 "2018-07-18T18:16:03Z")
Trump is an idiot, a crook, a terrible President, and a horrible human being. But I don’t think he’s technically a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/31 "2018-07-18T18:18:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How has he helped Russia out at all? Not only have the sanctions not been lifted, but new ones have been imposed. He just had a meeting with NATO where he demanded the other nations spend more money on defense to counteract Russia. He has also tried to get OPEC to lower the price of oil which the economy of Russia depends on. None of this proves anything. It’s easy to argue that Trump is trying to be a traitor and failing to do a good job at it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/32 "2018-07-18T18:28:46Z")
Can someone define, specifically, what they believe it means to be a traitor? And if the answer involves “United States’ interests,” can you also define specifically what those interests are? For example, were the Vietnam War protestors “traitors?” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/33 "2018-07-18T18:30:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can someone define, specifically, what they believe it means to be a traitor? > > And if the answer involves “United States’ interests,” can you also define specifically what those interests are? > > For example, were the Vietnam War protestors “traitors?” Why don’t you tell us what you think it means and then tell us whether or not Trump fits your definition? I’m sure we’d all be curious to know what you actually think about something and not about the legal aspects of something for once. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/34 "2018-07-18T18:31:21Z")
Most likely he’s a stupid man that would like to be a dictator like Putin/Erdogan/Duterte and is being manipulated into betraying American values. He, of course, doesn’t care about America other than what he can con out of it. However, actively trying to undermine the US is consistent with the evidence we have at hand. Now, I don’t think he has any ideological reason to want to destroy American. I’m sure he’d throw the US under the bus if it advanced personal goal. So, my vote is for not a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/35 "2018-07-18T18:37:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > None of this proves anything. It’s easy to argue that Trump is trying to be a traitor and failing to do a good job at it. I personally believe he’s \*\*trying \*\*to extract himself from billions of dollars of debt, and that the treason-ish behavior is a by-product. He isn’t a traitor in the sense of someone who believes his country is wrong and actively works to advance an enemy’s interest. That would require intellect and some degree of warped integrity. But if someone’s personal issues and weaknesses lead him to advance an enemy’s agenda at the expense of his own nation’s well-being, what else can you call it? And, as far as what he’s actually done to help Russia – who knows what he and Putin discussed during their private, one-on-one meeting before his pathetic speech Monday? ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/36 "2018-07-18T18:50:21Z")
Is an unwitting traitor - a dupe, a stooge, a patsy - still a “traitor”? Does his intent count? I don’t think he is intentionally betraying the country, but he’s really too stupid to know he’s being played. He’s likely of the mindset that whatever is good for Trump is, by definition, good for the country. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/37 "2018-07-18T18:51:54Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why don’t you tell us what you think it means and then tell us whether or not Trump fits your definition? I’m sure we’d all be curious to know what you actually think about something and not about the legal aspects of something for once. I’m not especially curious to know what he thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/38 "2018-07-18T18:53:43Z")
Does being a traitor require a conscious effort to act against the best interests of the US? Can you accidentally be traitor, or does that just make you clueless? If I drop something containing national secrets, and an agent of a foreign power picks it up, am I a traitor, or am I careless? I don’t think Trump has ever thought “I want Russia to gain power/knowledge/leverage over the US”, but I also don’t thing he has ever thought “Will this action hurt/help anyone other than me?” ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/39 "2018-07-18T19:00:55Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > I don’t think Trump has ever thought “I want Russia to gain power/knowledge/leverage over the US”, but I also don’t think he has ever thought “Will this action hurt/help anyone other than me?” My exact thoughts. But now, on to the sentencing phase … what happens when known facts (a Mueller probe, say, or another unexpected revelation) demonstrate that our president is a bumbling, accidental traitor? Someone who may not have set out to betray his country, but who by putting his own interests above the nation’s gave traitorous advantages to an enemy? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/40 "2018-07-18T19:03:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can someone define, specifically, what they believe it means to be a traitor? > > And if the answer involves “United States’ interests,” can you also define specifically what those interests are? > > For example, were the Vietnam War protestors “traitors?” I would say it’s in the U.S.'s interests to prevent adversaries from interfering in our elections. And that the POTUS refusing in the face of good evidence to accept that such interference has occurred works against those interests. I don’t know whether what Trump has done rises to the level of traitorous. But it’s laughable to compare it with citizens protesting a war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=3)