# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/481 "2018-07-25T15:18:50Z")
Yeah, but Obama/Hillary/Pelosi/Soros … ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/482 "2018-07-25T15:21:04Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > I believe the royalties would have been paid to Obama by the publisher of the book, Wikipedia shows two publishers for “Dreams from my Father”: Times books and Three Rivers Press, both based in New York City, therefore the payer was neither foreign, nor a King. > > Yahtzee! And the income from his hotel would most likely have been paid to him by Visa, Mastercard, or American Express, so THOSE payers are neither foreign, nor Kings. Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/483 "2018-07-25T15:33:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the income from his hotel would most likely have been paid to him by Visa, Mastercard, or American Express, so THOSE payers are neither foreign, nor Kings. Agreed? Not the same thing, Visa, MasterCard and American Express \*process \*payments, they don’t make them, if you buy a chocolate bar with a credit card, the bar isn’t considered Visa’s property. Also, the King may have paid cash at Trump’s hotels. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/484 "2018-07-25T15:36:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A claim is not a definition, but the evaluation of a claim’s accuracy is inextricably linked with the definitions of the words used in making the claim. Well, _sure_, you can use the words of the claim to argue against the claim. But you can’t use the words of the _claim_ to argue against the _definition_, as you were doing. IOW, you’ve got nothing but more meaningless sophistry. Keep digging, maybe you’ll find something. Not filled with expectation, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/485 "2018-07-25T15:37:32Z")
I suppose the situations would be analogous if Obama owned the publishing house, this its profits are his profits. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/486 "2018-07-25T15:54:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, _sure_, you can use the words of the claim to argue against the claim. But you can’t use the words of the _claim_ to argue against the _definition_, as you were doing. > > IOW, you’ve got nothing but more meaningless sophistry. Keep digging, maybe you’ll find something. Not filled with expectation, though. Gosh boss, can I use the words of the claim to point out that words in the claim are not defined? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/487 "2018-07-25T16:00:14Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > Not the same thing, Visa, MasterCard and American Express \*process \*payments, they don’t make them, if you buy a chocolate bar with a credit card, the bar isn’t considered Visa’s property. > > Also, the King may have paid cash at Trump’s hotels. OK. Let’s set aside cash payments for a moment, because I understand your argument to apply to credit card payments as well. If that’s wrong, please correct me. But why aren’t we saying that the publishing company _processes_ the payments to Obama? What is the definitive, specific difference? In both cases, foreign money gets transferred from the buyer of a good or service to a sitting President. Visa, MC, and Amex don’t send Trump a dollar for every dollar that’s spent. They withhold a percentage fee from each transaction. The publisher doesn’t send Obama a dollar for every dollar spent on his book: they withhold a percentage from each as well. What makes them different, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/488 "2018-07-25T16:02:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Does that describe Trump, then? He has deliberately harmed the United States at the behest of some enemy of the United States? Interestingly enough, this is actually the topic of the thread according to the OP. The OP actually includes which definition of ‘traitor’ to use as well, so there’s no point at all arguing about that! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/489 "2018-07-25T16:02:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I suppose the situations would be analogous if Obama owned the publishing house, this its profits are his profits. A percentage of its profits for the sales of his books are Obama’s profits. What percentage would make it an emolument? If a President did own a publishing company, would foreign sales of any of its books then become emoluments, according to you? Suppose the President’s book won a literary prize that was awarded by a foreign organization? Emolument? Say the Kenyan Literary Guild (joke! I joke) gave Obama 15,000 US dollars for writing such a great book. Emolument? ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/490 "2018-07-25T16:11:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. Let’s set aside cash payments for a moment, because I understand your argument to apply to credit card payments as well. If that’s wrong, please correct me. > > But why aren’t we saying that the publishing company _processes_ the payments to Obama? What is the definitive, specific difference? In both cases, foreign money gets transferred from the buyer of a good or service to a sitting President. Visa, MC, and Amex don’t send Trump a dollar for every dollar that’s spent. They withhold a percentage fee from each transaction. The publisher doesn’t send Obama a dollar for every dollar spent on his book: they withhold a percentage from each as well. > > What makes them different, specifically? In the case of a publisher, there are two separate transactions that may be separated significantly in time and space: [ol] [li]Person buys book from publisher[/li][li]Publisher pays royalties to Author[/li][/ol] In the case of Visa et al processing payments for a hotel stay, there is one transaction: [ol] [li]Person pays for hotel room[/li][/ol] That Visa charges the hotel a fee for processing the payments is insignificant, if the King tipped the concierge a shiny shilling to take his sack stuffed with rubies to the front desk, you couldn’t reasonably claim that the concierge had paid the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/491 "2018-07-25T16:18:26Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > In the case of a publisher, there are two separate transactions that may be separated significantly in time and space: > > [ol] > [li]Person buys book from publisher[/li][li]Publisher pays royalties to Author[/li][/ol] > > In the case of Visa et al processing payments for a hotel stay, there is one transaction: > > [ol] > [li]Person pays for hotel room[/li][/ol] > > That Visa charges the hotel a fee for processing the payments is insignificant, if the King tipped the concierge a shiny shilling to take his sack stuffed with rubies to the front desk, you couldn’t reasonably claim that the concierge had paid the bill. 1. Person “pays” for hotel room with Visa card 2. Visa actually pays hotel, on person’s behalf 3. Person gets bill from Visa 4. Person pays Visa So is the percentage of the fee significant? Ok. What’s the breakpoint? What royalties percentage would be so large that it be a,e an emolument? Also: > [@Bricker](#): > > AIf a President did own a publishing company, would foreign sales of any of its books then become emoluments, according to you? > > Suppose the President’s book won a literary prize that was awarded by a foreign organization? Emolument? Say the Kenyan Literary Guild (joke! I joke) gave Obama 15,000 US dollars for writing such a great book. Emolument? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/492 "2018-07-25T16:22:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, that would be a betrayal. > > But I notice you dodge my question that I’ve asked repeatedly, so let me ask it AGAIN: > > The Constitution requires that the President “take care that the laws be faithfully executed.” (Art II, Sec 3, Clause 5) > > The Constitution requires that no unreasonable searches be countenanced (Amendment IV). > > If the President orders his Attorney General to prioritize searching drug dealers, to find the slimmest excuse to get those searches approved in court, is that a betrayal of Amendment IV? Or if he orders his Attorney General to prioritize Amendment IV and accept that guilty men will go free in order to preserve Amendment IV’s boundaries, is THAT betrayal? Are either of those against the constitution? Prioritization is different from violating rights. If, within the smallest excuses, they can search a drug dealer, that is different from with no excuse. So, if the president orders his attorney general to search drug dealers with no excuse, then yes, that would be a betrayal of his oath. But that is not your question, though it is actually relevant. To avoid you claiming that I am dodging your question, no, prioritizing resources is not a violation of oath. > [@](#): > > When Obama instituted DACA, was he betraying his oath to faithfully execute immigration law? Well, yes, if he had taken an oath to faithfully execute immigration law, except that he didn’t take any such oath, so no. > [@](#): > > Answer, please. I’ve not dodged, I’ve just explained that your questions are not analogous. We are not talking about the person by the switch who has to choose between sending the train into the bus of orphans or the bus of nuns, we are talking about the person who personally profited from selling off the safety system to prevent that from happening. > [@](#): > > Correct. Because the Constitution does not say, “No receiving money from foreign powers.” It forbids the acceptance of: “…any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.” YOU decided that means money from running a hotel at which foreign guests stay. Not the courts. No, I see that it says “of any kind”. That you consider it to be not the kind that they were talking about is something that you decided. The courts haven’t decided, as they can’t get to merits without getting through standing. > [@](#): > > If your only argument is “what you consider,” then consider away. I won’t argue with you. Well, this whole thing is a debate based on what is considered to be a betrayal. I stated a fact, and gave my conclusion. If you don’t want to argue either the fact or the conclusion, then what is the point of arguing anything else at all? > [@](#): > > If your argument is that Trump is objectively, unambiguously, a traitor – not just “a metaphorical traitor to specific values,” then I disagree. My argument is that Trump has done things that are not in the best interest of our country, specifically because he was instead doing things that were in the best interest of Trump. > [@](#): > > Sure, plenty of things. He could order the US armed forces assigned to NATO to attack other NATO troops on the side of Russian while Russian tanks invaded Hungary or Poland, for instance. And if just ordered US troops to stand down while Russian tanks invade Poland? > [@Bricker](#): > > No. He’d have to do so with a frown, grimace, or at the very least a cute little moue. > > :rolleyes: > > Serious answer: the law provides that in construing the meaning of legal statutes, unless the context indicates otherwise, words importing the masculine gender include the feminine. See 1 U.S. Code § 1 - “Words denoting number, gender, and so forth.” > > Now: Obama’s book “Dreams from My Father,” earned royalties which were paid while he was President. Some of those royalties came from foreign purchasers. > > In your view, did that violate the Emoluments Clause? > > My answer: no. > > Yours? If the publisher were a foreign entity, I would say yes. If a foreigner told him that he bought a hundred thousand books, then sure, unless the proceeds were donated to charity, to demonstrate that there was no personal gain involved. When people seeking an audience with Trump specifically tell him that they stayed at his hotel, that it knowingly receiving a pay for play, and when it is from a foreign govt, then it is receiving it from a foreign govt. Can you tell me what you think that the purpose of the clause was when introduced? Is it not specifically to prevent foreign powers from having undue influence over govt officials? > [@Bricker](#): > > And the income from his hotel would most likely have been paid to him by Visa, Mastercard, or American Express, so THOSE payers are neither foreign, nor Kings. Agreed? And the american company that published Obama’s book also received those forms of payment, agreed. But, for your assertion there to be relevant, you’d have to show that no foreigners ever paid cash to stay at a Trump property. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/493 "2018-07-25T16:23:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Gosh boss, can I use the words of the claim to point out that words in the claim are not defined? You can do whatever you want, I’m not stopping you. I’m not interested in what you have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/494 "2018-07-25T16:33:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. Person “pays” for hotel room with Visa card > 2. Visa actually pays hotel, on person’s behalf > 3. Person gets bill from Visa > 4. Person pays Visa > > So is the percentage of the fee significant? > > Ok. > > What’s the breakpoint? What royalties percentage would be so large that it be a,e an emolument? > > Also: Is it your understanding that Visa pay for, and therefore own anything you buy on a credit card until you have settled the bill or are they extending an indefinite length loan to the cardholder with which they can buy things? Hypothetical: King Bob pays for his room with a Visa card, hotel policy is that the renter is responsible for all damages. King Bob wrecks the room. Until the King pays his credit card bill, is Visa on the hook for the damage? Since Visa is currently renting the room for Bob. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/495 "2018-07-25T16:35:11Z")
Did President Obama receive an Emolument when he accepted the Nobel Peace Prize from Norway? Answer: No. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/496 "2018-07-25T16:40:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Did President Obama receive an Emolument when he accepted the Nobel Peace Prize from Norway? Answer: No. Did he keep the money for himself? Answer: [No.](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/us/12nobel.html) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/497 "2018-07-25T16:40:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree. (Assuming you still mean “harm,” as unambiguous harm, as opposed to the argument that the country is ‘harmed,’ by Trump’s immigration policy, or his judicial appointments, or his demands that NATO members pay more than they have been). Correct. If a President decides to dump NATO because he feels that is good policy, I may believe that stupid and hazardous, but it’s a different in policy and competence, not traitorous behavior. Lloyd Fredendall, the U.S. commander at Kassarine Pass, failed spectacularly and harmed American interests, but he was not a traitor, he TRIED to win but was incompetent. Robert E. Lee was a competent general but was legitimately a traitor. > [@](#): > > Does that describe Trump, then? He has deliberately harmed the United States at the behest of some enemy of the United States? Yes, I believe he has. I do not have proof, but based on the evidence I believe Trump has, at Russia’s bidding, or in conspiracy with them, covered up direct attacks and attempts to sabotage the electoral system of the United States, a fundamental part of the apparatus of state and in my opinion an act of war or equivalent in severity to it. I think it likely, but I am less certain of, that he conspired with Russia prior to the election, and that he has taken steps to alter America’s foreign and defence policies not out of a legitimate policy agenda, but to specifically harm the United States of America and assist the Russian Federation. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/498 "2018-07-25T16:42:38Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > Is it your understanding that Visa pay for, and therefore own anything you buy on a credit card until you have settled the bill or are they extending an indefinite length loan to the cardholder with which they can buy things? > > Hypothetical: King Bob pays for his room with a Visa card, hotel policy is that the renter is responsible for all damages. King Bob wrecks the room. Until the King pays his credit card bill, is Visa on the hook for the damage? Since Visa is currently renting the room for Bob. Odder, but more relevant hypothetical. King Bob bribes a govt official, and puts the bribe on his charge card. Does that change it so it is actually Visa doing the bribing? If not, then Bricker’s whole digression about charge cards is pointless. If so, the Visa has some serious liability. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/499 "2018-07-25T16:43:02Z")
Well, at least one federal judge disagrees with you, **Bricker**. [Federal Judge Allows Emoluments Case Against Trump to Proceed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal-judge-allows-emoluments-case-against-trump-to-proceed/2018/07/25/c8070206-8fa4-11e8-8322-b5482bf5e0f5_story.html?noredirect=on) (WaPo) > [@](#): > > A federal judge on Wednesday rejected President Trump’s latest effort to stop a lawsuit that alleges Trump is violating the Constitution by continuing to do business with foreign governments. > > The ruling, from U.S. District Judge Peter J. Messitte in Greenbelt, Md., will allow the plaintiffs in the case — the attorneys general of Maryland and the District of Columbia — to proceed with their case, which says Trump has violated the Constitution’s little-used emoluments clause. > > The plaintiffs now want to interview Trump Organization employees and search company records to determine which foreign countries have spent money at Trump’s hotel in downtown Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/500 "2018-07-25T16:47:25Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Well, at least one federal judge disagrees with you, **Bricker**. > > [Federal Judge Allows Emoluments Case Against Trump to Proceed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal-judge-allows-emoluments-case-against-trump-to-proceed/2018/07/25/c8070206-8fa4-11e8-8322-b5482bf5e0f5_story.html?noredirect=on) (WaPo) Really? What did he say that contradicts anything I’ve said? Specifically? See, I suspect the judge ruled that the lawsuit could proceed, not that Trump’s hotel income was in fact an emolument, but simply that the plaintiffs were alleging an actual case or controversy in which they had suffered injuries. I suspect the judge didn’t agree that they DID suffer injuries, or that if they did, those injuries were a result of an emoluments clause violation. So please enlighten me: what claim, specifically, do you believe the judge disagrees with me? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=26)