# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/41 "2018-07-18T19:12:43Z")
He’s actively, deliberately ignorant, with profound narcissism functioning as a mental impairment. He has no ideology, no philosophy, no core than self-gratification. Such a person could be a “traitor,” but I don’t think it’s really particularly productive to get into dictionary pissing contests over it. He’s harmful and his only concerns are his own fame and assets. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/42 "2018-07-18T19:13:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why don’t you tell us what you think it means and then tell us whether or not Trump fits your definition? I’m sure we’d all be curious to know what you actually think about something and not about the legal aspects of something for once. I am willing to bet **Bricker** has Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution ready to deploy: > [@](#): > > Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. > > The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted. > > SOURCE: [Article III | U.S. Constitution | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii) By definition a traitor is a person who commits treason so in the US the above is the answer to, “What it means to be a traitor.” (At least legally…rhetorically it is whatever you want it to be.) The trick then is to define what constitutes an “enemy” to the US and what constitutes “aid and comfort” for this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/43 "2018-07-18T19:14:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > None of this proves anything. It’s easy to argue that Trump is trying to be a traitor and failing to do a good job at it. It would be just as easy to argue that FDR was working for Hitler and was just really bad at it. In order to even entertain such crazy notions one should be able to point to actions which he has taken that advance the interests of Russia at the expense of American interests, the fact that no one has should show you this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/44 "2018-07-18T19:26:05Z")
Perhaps “Treason” is a better word? Traitor has multiple connotations and baggage. Treason is helping the enemy. Russia is an enemy. Maybe an enemy that we can do business with, and co-exist with, but still an enemy. Trump just spent the past week publicly driving a wedge into the NATO alliance, calling into question the base tenet of NATO mutual defense, and on a global stage declared support for Putin over the US intelligence community. Treason seems to be a fair summation. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/45 "2018-07-18T19:26:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > In order to even entertain such crazy notions one should be able to point to actions which he has taken that advance the interests of Russia at the expense of American interests, the fact that no one has should show you this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. Accepting Russia’s aid to win the election (if demonstrated to be true) was arguably an act of treason all by itself. Would an enemy really offer such aid without a quid-pro-quo? Even if Putin’s only real goal was to install the biggest idiot possible in the White House, Trump has fulfilled his wildest dreams. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/46 "2018-07-18T19:27:12Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I personally believe he’s \*\*trying \*\*to extract himself from billions of dollars of debt, and that the treason-ish behavior is a by-product. > > He isn’t a traitor in the sense of someone who believes his country is wrong and actively works to advance an enemy’s interest. That would require intellect and some degree of warped integrity. But if someone’s personal issues and weaknesses lead him to advance an enemy’s agenda at the expense of his own nation’s well-being, what else can you call it? > > And, as far as what he’s actually done to help Russia – who knows what he and Putin discussed during their private, one-on-one meeting before his pathetic speech Monday? Trump is like a government worker with gambling debts in the bad old days, who could be subject to blackmail. Or who had some “morals” problem. Is it easier to go along with the person who knows my secret or suffer the consequences. His empire would fall apart if the banks under Putin’s control called his loans. I bet that is more of a factor than the piss tape. He is stupid, yes, or more accurately does not have enough attention span to read an entire intelligence briefing, but you don’t know a PhD from Georgetown to know the value of NATO and that Canadians are better friends of the US than Russians. Traitor? Maybe not. Traitorous. Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/47 "2018-07-18T19:33:49Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Perhaps “Treason” is a better word? Traitor has multiple connotations and baggage. Treason is helping the enemy. Maybe we could use definition #1 but definition #2 is the one with possible legal consequences. > [@](#): > > Definition of traitor > 1 : one who betrays another’s trust or is false to an obligation or duty > 2 : one who commits treason > > SOURCE: [Traitor Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor) ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/48 "2018-07-18T19:35:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can someone define, specifically, what they believe it means to be a traitor? > > And if the answer involves “United States’ interests,” can you also define specifically what those interests are? > > For example, were the Vietnam War protestors “traitors?” Well, just talking about my gut interpretation, and not about the letter of any law, treason consists of attempting to subvert or undermine your country’s government and/or national interests; taking actions which have the predictable result of making your country subservient to a foreign power. I could certainly offer a definition of national interests, but I don’t believe it’s possible to arrive at any definition that would be universally agreed upon. I would hope we could nearly universally agree that secretly accepting aid from foreign intelligence agents to gain an advantage in your political campaign, in exchange for agreeing to allow those agents to dictate foreign policy once you are elected, is acting against the national interest. WRT Vietnam, the vast majority of both the people who believed it was important for our country to demonstrate resolve against Communism and the people who believed that the war was bankrupting us, killing our sons for no useful purpose, and degrading our moral stature were sincerely trying to uphold the national interest as they understood it, and thus were not traitors. Even if their methods of protest involved violent crimes, that would not necessarily make them traitors. There was a tiny minority of people who wanted to foment a violent Communist revolution, and viewed participation in war protests as a means to that end. I would say they could fairly be considered traitors, and if they were actually knowingly receiving advice, direction and/or financial support from agents of a foreign government, then definitely traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/49 "2018-07-18T19:38:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It would be just as easy to argue that FDR was working for Hitler and was just really bad at it. > In order to even entertain such crazy notions one should be able to point to actions which he has taken that advance the interests of Russia at the expense of American interests, the fact that no one has should show you this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. I would suggest weakening the US relationship with NATO (which Trump did) and the US starting a trade war among its closest trading partners (which Trump seems to be trying to do) are definitely in the best interests of Russia. Not to mention further polarizing the US electorate and undermining the media (which Trump does practically daily). All great destabilizing things Russia likes to see (they worked towards that goal after all). More concretely Trump [opposed sanctions](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/us/politics/trump-russia-sanctions.html) against Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/50 "2018-07-18T19:41:16Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It would be just as easy to argue that FDR was working for Hitler and was just really bad at it. > In order to even entertain such crazy notions one should be able to point to actions which he has taken that advance the interests of Russia at the expense of American interests, the fact that no one has should show you this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. The news conference where he threw over his own country’s security analysts to support Putin was just a couple of days ago! _You_ might find it easy to argue that FDR was working for Hitler, but anyone with actual respect for and knowledge of history wouldn’t support such a weak argument. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/51 "2018-07-18T19:43:24Z")
He is a traitor, albeit not in the strict legal sense. I used to think maybe he was just stupid. There is no longer any question that Trump is doing the bidding of the Russian Federation, and deliberately betraying his country to do so. Why I do not know, but there is no other reasonable explanation. > [@puddleglum](#): > > ne should be able to point to actions which he has taken that advance the interests of Russia at the expense of American interests, the fact that no one has should show you this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. I can. Russian attacked the United States in an effort to damage its apparatus of state and destabilize it as a nation. Trump’s duty as President is to fight back, to prevent further attacks, and to incorporate this ongoing threat into the American plan of national defense. Instead he has deliberately helped Russia in its efforts to attack the USA. He has done this by denying their role in the attack, denying its existence, and refusing to take action to prevent further attacks. Those are the actions of a traitor, in the general sense. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/52 "2018-07-18T19:49:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am willing to bet **Bricker** has Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution ready to deploy: > > By definition a traitor is a person who commits treason so in the US the above is the answer to, “What it means to be a traitor.” (At least legally…rhetorically it is whatever you want it to be.) > > The trick then is to define what constitutes an “enemy” to the US and what constitutes “aid and comfort” for this purpose. Trump defenders seem to insist that “enemy” can only apply to a nation with whom we are in a formally declared state of war, and since we are not at war with Russia, he can’t have committed treason, therefore STUPID LIBTARDS HURR HURR HURR. Of course, that’s ridiculous. It might be relevant to a discussion involving actual criminal charges of treason, but that’s IMO goalpost moving to distract from alleged-but-increasingly-plausible conduct which clearly (a)meets the common sense definition of treason and (b) involves the commission of multiple serious felonies. The Rosenbergs, for instance, were clearly traitors, despite the fact that AFAIK they were never literally charged with the crime of treason, but were convicted of “espionage”. So I think Trump is a traitor, and will refer to him as such in ordinary conversation, but if he ends up going to prison with convictions for money laundering and being an unregistered agent of a foreign power rather than treason, I won’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/53 "2018-07-18T19:58:16Z")
The stupidest thing I’ve heard in the last couple of days? The fairy tale Trumpettes tell themselves and others that Trump laid down the law in that private meeting with Putin, then pretended to defer to him in public just to let Putin save face. ( :rolleyes: 'til the cows come home). ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/54 "2018-07-18T20:03:52Z")
Steve Chapman in today’s Trib had this to say: > [@](#): > > The most plausible explanations for his contemptible fawning on a vicious dictator and aggressor are three. The first is that Trump is a gold-plated fool — a narcissist driven by his ego and outraged by the idea that he might owe his election to Putin, who acknowledged Monday that he wanted Trump to win. > > In this scenario, he is flattered by Putin’s support and naive enough to trust him. At the same time, he has to dismiss evidence that the Russians interfered, deny that he or his campaign collaborated with them, and heap contempt on Hillary Clinton. > > The second possibility is that he’s a weak man who is congenitally incapable of standing up to strong ones — particularly if they share his disdain for democratic norms and the rule of law. Trump picks fights with the leaders of Western democracies such as Germany, Britain and Canada. But he loses his nerve in the presence of the likes of Putin, China’s Xi Jinping and North Korea’s Kim Jong Un. > > The most disturbing option is that Trump is the conscious, faithful servant of the Kremlin, doing its bidding at whatever cost to our national interests. But why would he betray his country? > > Maybe Putin has scandalous information or material that could destroy Trump’s presidency. Maybe he has bought Trump off — which could explain his refusal to release his tax returns. Maybe Trump has huge debts to Russian oligarchs and fears they will expose crimes he has committed, bankrupt him or even harm members of his family unless he does the Kremlin’s bidding. > > … > > But whatever Trump’s motives, he has made his choice clear. > … Thought it well phrased. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/55 "2018-07-18T20:12:16Z")
That’s perfect. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/56 "2018-07-18T20:20:48Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It would be just as easy to argue that FDR was working for Hitler and was just really bad at it. > In order to even entertain such crazy notions one should be able to point to actions which he has taken that advance the interests of Russia at the expense of American interests, the fact that no one has should show you this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. This has already been explained repeatedly and at length. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/57 "2018-07-18T20:24:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why don’t you tell us what you think it means and then tell us whether or not Trump fits your definition? I’m sure we’d all be curious to know what you actually think about something and not about the legal aspects of something for once. Except that “treason” has a specific legal definition under the Constitution. If I wanted your opinion, I’d post in IMHO or MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/58 "2018-07-18T20:29:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Except that “treason” has a specific legal definition under the Constitution. If I wanted your opinion, I’d post in IMHO or MPSIMS. If you wanted a factual answer you should have posted in GQ, and if you wanted a legal opinion you should have gone to The Supreme Court…and even they would deliberate rather than give a snap judgment. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/59 "2018-07-18T20:30:21Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Except that “treason” has a specific legal definition under the Constitution. One which has been met. The definition of “High crimes and misdemeanors” is a little more open-ended. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/60 "2018-07-18T20:31:35Z")
He is acting in Russia’s best interests and against the US’s best interests, and is doing so without care that he is acting against the US’s best interests. There is likely some law that he is violating in doing so, and he has certainly violated many other laws, and continues to do so. None of that, however, meets the Constitution’s definition of treason. There are other, more colloquial, definitions of treason which do match, but none of those other definitions is as relevant as the definition in the Constitution. Furthermore, declaring him a traitor is a tactical blunder, because his supporters have an easy defense against that specific charge, and by defending against that charge, it enables them to simultaneously pretend that all of the many other charges don’t exist, and that his accusers are unhinged. Call him a sexual assailant, call him a tax evader, call him an obstructor of justice, call him a fraudster, and yes, call him a foreign agent. But don’t call him a traitor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=4)