# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/81 "2018-07-18T22:01:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If Trump was taking marching orders from Putin would that suffice? Directly? Or even indirectly from the Russian leadership? Sure. But you’d have to have direct evidence that Putin et al are, indeed giving the US president marching orders, instead of the evident fact that we have an idiot for a president. Being an idiot, sadly, isn’t sufficient evidence for treason or even a disqualification for being president, though it should be the latter at least. However, if there is any actual evidence that Putin or the Russians are telling Trump what to do and he is following those orders then, yes, IMHO that would be evidence of treason. I’d say that Russia would qualify as ‘enemies’, and doing what they tell you too, as US president would be ‘giving them Aid and Comfort’, as that has been interpreted as including betrayal of US alliances (such as, oh, say NATO). The trouble is going to be giving real evidence that this is the case. At a guess, even if Trump isn’t the sharpest tool in the dull tool shed, Putin et al aren’t going to actually be giving him direct marching orders that can be presented as evidence. And nothing I’ve seen points to Trump doing anything contrary to what he has talked about and nattered on about for years…in some cases decades. He really believes in most of the stupidity he spouts…and he’s made no secret about most of it either, so the folks who voted for him shouldn’t really be surprised. And that’s the rub…even if some of the things he’s doing are things Putin et al would agree with, hell, would want him to do, he campaigned on this shit. Folks elected him as president knowing he felt this way and would do dippy shit like this. And as president, he is empowered to do what he thinks he should wrt the electorate as long as he stays within the bounds of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/82 "2018-07-18T22:02:19Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I think this nails it. He isn’t working on Russia’s behalf because he is loyal to Russia or even because Russia is paying him to do it. He’s working on Russia’s behalf because he is so stupid and arrogant he thinks it will benefit him to do so. Putin is so much his puppeteer it would make me cry if I had any tears left. I would bet a lot of money that Trump is under sway of Putin because Putin has some real dirt on Trump. Likely both sexual and financial but with an emphasis on financial. Putin is former KGB. The KGB were masters at co-opting people. People a helluva lot smarter than Trump. For Putin and the KGB co-opting Trump was barely a morning’s work. They almost certainly have a psychological profile on Trump and know how to manipulate him which I doubt is too difficult being the narcissist Trump is. Consider the numerous shady financial dealings we are aware of and his refusal to release tax returns (that he promised to release) and his dealings in eastern Europe. They probably have a lot of hooks into Trump by now. The sex stuff, if it exists, is probably secondary. So they use a carrot and stick method and can make Trump do as they will same as they have done with countless numbers of people before him. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/83 "2018-07-18T22:06:25Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I am not sure about “letter of the law” traitor but I am amazed at both his actions and the faction of people who are so blinded by playing for Team Red … Team -\> Team [Red Army] It doesn’t look like a big jump, when you write it - but it is. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/84 "2018-07-18T22:10:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The trouble is going to be giving real evidence that this is the case. If Mueller uncovers unshakable evidence that Trump himself (not just Junior or Kushner) knowingly and willingly accepted help in winning the election, wouldn’t that be enough? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/85 "2018-07-18T22:22:34Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > If Mueller uncovers unshakable evidence that Trump himself (not just Junior or Kushner) knowingly and willingly accepted help in winning the election, wouldn’t that be enough? For a treason charge? No. For impeachment? Absolutely, IMHO at least (I’m no lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one). Now, if you say that the Russians then used this as leverage to get Trump to deliberately undermine NATO…THEN you are talking the realm of treason, at least as it seems to be defined in the Constitution. So, yeah…get all that and I will be more than happy to say that the ‘plain and simple’ answer is ‘yes’. But right now, at this time and based on what I know of where things stand? Nope, not seeing it. I think folks saying that are jumping the gun and allowing their hate and emotions to rule. JMHO and all, and I can certainly see how Trump pushes folks buttons. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/86 "2018-07-18T22:23:52Z")
I don’t think he’s really a traitor. I don’t think he’s helping the other side to try to get them to win. I think what people are seeing that makes them say “traitor” is that he is definitely not “on our side”. He isn’t interested at all in advancing the interests of the US or its people. His only goal is his personal image. To look “Winning”, Charlie Sheen style. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/87 "2018-07-18T22:32:20Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I don’t think he’s really a traitor. I don’t think he’s helping the other side to try to get them to win. I don’t really care about his motive. Trump lied, discredited America, damaged our institutions, and helped Russia. Like the craven little Soviet bitch that he is. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/88 "2018-07-18T22:43:53Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I don’t think he’s really a traitor. I don’t think he’s helping the other side to try to get them to win. > > I think what people are seeing that makes them say “traitor” is that he is definitely not “on our side”. He isn’t interested at all in advancing the interests of the US or its people. His only goal is his personal image. To look “Winning”, Charlie Sheen style. A person doesn’t have to be loyal to the enemy to be a traitor. Benedict Arnold wasn’t a Tory; he did it for prestige. Betraying your country for money is also a fairly standard thing. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/89 "2018-07-18T22:44:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > He is acting in Russia’s best interests and against the US’s best interests, and is doing so without care that he is acting against the US’s best interests. There is likely some law that he is violating in doing so, and he has certainly violated many other laws, and continues to do so. > > None of that, however, meets the Constitution’s definition of treason. There are other, more colloquial, definitions of treason which do match, but none of those other definitions is as relevant as the definition in the Constitution. > > Furthermore, declaring him a traitor is a tactical blunder, because his supporters have an easy defense against that specific charge, and by defending against that charge, it enables them to simultaneously pretend that all of the many other charges don’t exist, and that his accusers are unhinged. > > Call him a sexual assailant, call him a tax evader, call him an obstructor of justice, call him a fraudster, and yes, call him a foreign agent. But don’t call him a traitor. I disagree. “Traitor” is a strong word. It has the connotations we want: a person who has done something unforgivably evil and deserves the harshest punishment imaginable. The hyperliteral legalistic defense is so obviously BS that those trying to use it only make themselves look more like craven fools (this thread is my cite). It’s like if you go to a school board meeting and announce you have just discovered that the gym teacher is a pedophile who has done time for child rape. The gym teacher laughs and calls you an idiot who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, because “pedophiles, by the DSM-V definition, are attracted to prepubescent children, and the kid I did time for was 14 and had pubic hair! _I’m_ an _epebophile_! Also, the conviction was for aggravated sexual assault, not rape! Boy, don’t you look foolish now!” Who would you say is going to be perceived as winning that argument? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/90 "2018-07-18T22:54:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > He is a traitor, albeit not in the strict legal sense. > > I used to think maybe he was just stupid. There is no longer any question that Trump is doing the bidding of the Russian Federation, and deliberately betraying his country to do so. Why I do not know, but there is no other reasonable explanation. > I can. Russian attacked the United States in an effort to damage its apparatus of state and destabilize it as a nation. Trump’s duty as President is to fight back, to prevent further attacks, and to incorporate this ongoing threat into the American plan of national defense. Instead he has deliberately helped Russia in its efforts to attack the USA. He has done this by denying their role in the attack, denying its existence, and refusing to take action to prevent further attacks. Those are the actions of a traitor, in the general sense. Pretty damn specific (and accurate) if you ask me- but hey, we quibble over terms. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/91 "2018-07-18T23:37:42Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > A person doesn’t have to be loyal to the enemy to be a traitor. Benedict Arnold wasn’t a Tory; he did it for prestige. Betraying your country for money is also a fairly standard thing. I didn’t say a traitor had to be loyal to the enemy; I said a traitor has to do things aimed at an enemy victory. Benedict Arnold did aim for an enemy victory. Trump is only aiming for a Trump victory. He believes he is bigger and more important than America and Russia put together. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/92 "2018-07-18T23:42:37Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I didn’t say a traitor had to be loyal to the enemy; I said a traitor has to do things aimed at an enemy victory. Benedict Arnold did aim for an enemy victory. Trump is only aiming for a Trump victory. He believes he is bigger and more important than America and Russia put together. I do not believe this is the case. I think that Trump does things that overtly aim for Russian victory. (Well, Russian _benefit_ - it’s hard to have “victory” without a declared war or something.) With several of his pro-Russia actions it’s difficult to see what personal benefit he _could_ see in them, aside from benefits that come one way or another from Putin’s approval. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/93 "2018-07-19T00:02:17Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I would say it’s in the U.S.'s interests to prevent adversaries from interfering in our elections. > > And that the POTUS refusing in the face of good evidence to accept that such interference has occurred works against those interests. I think both those statements are true. But I don’t think they are complete. Surely the US has other interests. Are amicable relations with Russia a valid US interest? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/94 "2018-07-19T00:05:37Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > I could certainly offer a definition of national interests, but I don’t believe it’s possible to arrive at any definition that would be universally agreed upon. I agree. > [@](#): > > I would hope we could nearly universally agree that secretly accepting aid from foreign intelligence agents to gain an advantage in your political campaign, in exchange for agreeing to allow those agents to dictate foreign policy once you are elected, is acting against the national interest. I agree. > [@](#): > > WRT Vietnam, the vast majority of both the people who believed it was important for our country to demonstrate resolve against Communism and the people who believed that the war was bankrupting us, killing our sons for no useful purpose, and degrading our moral stature were sincerely trying to uphold the national interest as they understood it, and thus were not traitors. Even if their methods of protest involved violent crimes, that would not necessarily make them traitors. I agree. So accepting all that you have said as true, here’s the part I don’t yet see strong evidence for: “…in exchange for agreeing to allow those agents to dictate foreign policy once you are elected…” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/95 "2018-07-19T00:06:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think both those statements are true. > > But I don’t think they are complete. Surely the US has other interests. Are amicable relations with Russia a valid US interest? Define “amicable”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/96 "2018-07-19T00:08:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I would suggest weakening the US relationship with NATO (which Trump did) and the US starting a trade war among its closest trading partners (which Trump seems to be trying to do) are definitely in the best interests of Russia. > > Not to mention further polarizing the US electorate and undermining the media (which Trump does practically daily). All great destabilizing things Russia likes to see (they worked towards that goal after all). > > More concretely Trump [opposed sanctions](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/us/politics/trump-russia-sanctions.html) against Russia. But, again, there’s also clearly a US interest in NATO partners contributing more to their defense than they have been. Is that a fair statement? I mean, you may personally believe that the benefit from attempting that is not worth the risk of alienating those partners, but I can’t imagine you’d argue that this weighing is absolutely required for every reasonable person. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/97 "2018-07-19T00:10:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think both those statements are true. > > But I don’t think they are complete. Surely the US has other interests. Are amicable relations with Russia a valid US interest? This isn’t “amicable relations.” This is Russia raping us and destroying our democracy while their spineless coward puppet sits there and takes it like a bitch. You can’t have “amicable relations” with a bank robber while he is in the process of robbing you. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/98 "2018-07-19T00:14:08Z")
If not, he’ll do till one comes along. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/99 "2018-07-19T00:15:52Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > I disagree. “Traitor” is a strong word. It has the connotations we want: a person who has done something unforgivably evil and deserves the harshest punishment imaginable. > > The hyperliteral legalistic defense is so obviously BS that those trying to use it only make themselves look more like craven fools (this thread is my cite). > > It’s like if you go to a school board meeting and announce you have just discovered that the gym teacher is a pedophile who has done time for child rape. The gym teacher laughs and calls you an idiot who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, because “pedophiles, by the DSM-V definition, are attracted to prepubescent children, and the kid I did time for was 14 and had pubic hair! _I’m_ an _epebophile_! Also, the conviction was for aggravated sexual assault, not rape! Boy, don’t you look foolish now!” Who would you say is going to be perceived as winning that argument? Ah the Humpty Dumpty linguistic model. If you have to rely on words that can have any meaning to win an argument than you don’t really have an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/100 "2018-07-19T00:16:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He and his followers have no trouble saying “Crooked Hillary” and “Failing New York Times” over and over and over again, so why not? Listen, if you are suggesting that “Traitor Trump,” is justified by the same logic and debate tactics that brought us “Lyin’ Ted,” and “Crooked Hillary,” then I certainly agree. There’s more inferential evidence for the Trump accusation than there ever was for Clinton’s supposed felonies or wholesale Benghazi slaughter plan. I had simply hoped that GD would not, collectively, support that kind of tenuous logical inference. But if indeed you can rest comfortably on being as skilled a logician as Trump is, I won’t demand more from you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=6)