# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![betterlifethroughchemistry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/betterlifethroughchemistry/32/3094_2.png) [@betterlifethroughchemistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betterlifethroughchemistry)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/101 "2018-07-19T00:39:45Z")
Wow…such a display of objectivity…you’ve allowed your hatred of Trump to obscure the fact this happens on a regular basis no matter who is in power… > **[Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html)** > > As the Russian atomic energy agency gradually took charge of a company that controls one-fifth of all uranium production capacity in the United States, a stream of cash made its way to the former president’s charitable organization. > **[Did Obama Suggest 'More Flexibility' Toward Russia After the 2012 Election?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-more-flexibility-russia/)** > > In 2012, Barack Obama was overheard telling Russian President Dmitri Medvedev he would have "more flexibility" to negotiate with Putin after the election. Would you consider the Clintons traitors? Obama? Yeah, I didn’t think so… I am not a fan of Trump, but I am disgusted by the fact that civil discourse is dead in this country, that a seemingly intelligent and tolerant group of people have become a sycophantic mob…sigh… Stop it, we will be fine as a country, we will overcome this, we have before and we will again… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/102 "2018-07-19T00:42:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Except that “treason” has a specific legal definition under the Constitution. But ‘traitor’ doesn’t. (See the dictionary definition I posted upthread.) ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/103 "2018-07-19T00:43:56Z")
> [@betterlifethroughchemistry](#): > > I am not a fan of Trump, but I am disgusted by the fact that civil discourse is dead in this country, that a seemingly intelligent and tolerant group of people have become a sycophantic mob…sigh… > > Stop it, we will be fine as a country, we will overcome this, we have before and we will again… I’m disgusted by your attempts to draw blatantly false equivalences. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/104 "2018-07-19T00:55:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Listen, if you are suggesting that “Traitor Trump,” is justified by the same logic and debate tactics that brought us “Lyin’ Ted,” and “Crooked Hillary,” then I certainly agree. There’s more inferential evidence for the Trump accusation than there ever was for Clinton’s supposed felonies or wholesale Benghazi slaughter plan. > > I had simply hoped that GD would not, collectively, support that kind of tenuous logical inference. But if indeed you can rest comfortably on being as skilled a logician as Trump is, I won’t demand more from you. If I go back and look for all the times you objected to conservatives using the terms “Crooked Hillary”, “Lyin’ Ted” or “Failing New York Times”, what would I find? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/105 "2018-07-19T00:58:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > He is acting in Russia’s best interests and against the US’s best interests, and is doing so without care that he is acting against the US’s best interests. There is likely some law that he is violating in doing so, and he has certainly violated many other laws, and continues to do so. > > None of that, however, meets the Constitution’s definition of treason. There are other, more colloquial, definitions of treason which do match, but none of those other definitions is as relevant as the definition in the Constitution. > > Furthermore, declaring him a traitor is a tactical blunder, because his supporters have an easy defense against that specific charge, and by defending against that charge, it enables them to simultaneously pretend that all of the many other charges don’t exist, and that his accusers are unhinged. > > Call him a sexual assailant, call him a tax evader, call him an obstructor of justice, call him a fraudster, and yes, call him a foreign agent. But don’t call him a traitor. Why did I bother posting the dictionary definition of ‘traitor’? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![betterlifethroughchemistry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/betterlifethroughchemistry/32/3094_2.png) [@betterlifethroughchemistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betterlifethroughchemistry)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/106 "2018-07-19T00:58:42Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > I’m disgusted by your attempts to draw blatantly false equivalences. Really? Is that an intelligent and well reasoned response? No, not at all… Please elucidate an argument that would explain why you are disgusted by my ‘attempts to draw blatantly false equivalences’… What do you believe to be those ‘blatantly false equivalences’? Is it a matter of the Clintons’ behavior? Is it Obama’s actual words? Do you have evidence that the Trump campaign/administration has actually done worse than the cites I’ve provided? I don’t mean Trump-hating sources, I mean actually fact finding… This is exactly what I am disgusted by - I put forth a logical, cited argument that this happens in many administrations, and you came back with a general statement that did not address my discussion point…sigh… Please, if you would like to have a civil discourse, I would be more than willing to engage… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/107 "2018-07-19T01:19:59Z")
> [@betterlifethroughchemistry](#): > > Wow…such a display of objectivity…you’ve allowed your hatred of Trump to obscure the fact this happens on a regular basis no matter who is in power… > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html) > > [Did Obama Suggest 'More Flexibility' Toward Russia After the 2012 Election? | Snopes.com](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-more-flexibility-russia/) > > Would you consider the Clintons traitors? Obama? > > Yeah, I didn’t think so… > > I am not a fan of Trump, but I am disgusted by the fact that civil discourse is dead in this country, that a seemingly intelligent and tolerant group of people have become a sycophantic mob…sigh… > > Stop it, we will be fine as a country, we will overcome this, we have before and we will again… Holy shit, people are still talking about Uranium One. Well, let’s see. [The timing of the donations doesn’t match.](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/) > [@](#): > > Of the $145 million allegedly contributed to the Clinton Foundation by Uranium One investors, the lion’s share — $131.3 million — came from a single donor, Frank Giustra, the company’s Canadian founder. But Giustra sold off his entire stake in the company in 2007, three years before the Russia deal and at least 18 months before Clinton became secretary of state. Moreover- it wasn’t Clinton’s deal. The State Dept was only one of nine cabinet departments that had to review the deal, and ultimately it was Obama’s call. The surest sign of lack of understanding is someone saying “Hillary gave 20% of our uranium to Russia”. It wasn’t her deal, and on top of all that NONE of the uranium went to Russia- the company lacks an export license. Russia had plenty of uranium before and after the deal, as does the US. In the Obama matter, yes he told the puppet Medvedev that he’d have more flexibility in talking about missile reductions after the election. That’s how it works, sometimes delicate negotiations have to wait till after elections. At least there was no Obama pee tape that Medvedev held over his head. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/108 "2018-07-19T01:33:26Z")
He was a traitor back when he took Russian officials into the Oval Office and there gave them intelligence information which worked for Russia and against the US and Israel. That action is established fact, and I can’t understand why he was allowed to continue receiving classified information after that. He was a traitor again when he refused to enact the sanctions which Congress had passed and he had signed. This was clearly aid and comfort to Russia, in direct contradiction of US interests. And his most recent transgression, as he flopped unprepared into a one-on-one meeting with Vladimir Putin of ALL people, failing even to ensure a recording of the meeting, was almost certainly in the service of Russian interests over those of the USA. His resulting press conference certainly illustrated the ease with which Mr. Putin had turned President Trump’s thoughts back onto a familiar spiral, preventing him from thinking clearly in regards to the true issues at hand. He let Putin slide on a subject of the utmost importance - the sanctity of our elections. He even prevented our press from being able to hold Mr. Putin’s feet to the fire, by going off on a rant placing the blame on another US politician. If helping Russia to avoid consequences for meddling in our elections isn’t aid and comfort, what is it? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/109 "2018-07-19T01:34:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But ‘traitor’ doesn’t. (See the dictionary definition I posted upthread.) A traitor is someone who commits treason. It’s entirely dependent on the definition of treason being used. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/110 "2018-07-19T01:36:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If I go back and look for all the times you objected to conservatives using the terms “Crooked Hillary”, “Lyin’ Ted” or “Failing New York Times”, what would I find? [This thread, for starters.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18176960&postcount=1) ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/111 "2018-07-19T01:42:50Z")
I think it’s important if you’re going to call someone a traitor that it be pretty certain to stand up in whatever court will be judging it. I’m not at all certain that Trump’s actions would fit the US constitution’s definition of treason well enough to convict him. Did he lie? Yes, about nearly everything. Did he cheat? Yes, many times. Did he abuse his office for personal gain? Yes, many times. Is this enough to impeach him? Sure, there’s no standard for impeachment other than a sufficiently widespread dislike. Is this enough for him to be convicted of treason? I’m not making any bets. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/112 "2018-07-19T01:47:34Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > He was a traitor back when he took Russian officials into the Oval Office and there gave them intelligence information which worked for Russia and against the US and Israel. That action is established fact, and I can’t understand why he was allowed to continue receiving classified information after that. But wait a second. Is it possible to assume that the policy of the United States was to improve relations with Russia and the detriment to the US and Israel was an acceptable price to pay? Why is your judgement about the relative value of these competing goals the one that controls this analysis? > [@](#): > > He was a traitor again when he refused to enact the sanctions which Congress had passed and he had signed. This was clearly aid and comfort to Russia, in direct contradiction of US interests. Same question. In 1935, Congress passed and President Roosevelt signed the first of the Neutrality Acts. This created a legal embargo on trade in both arms and other war materials with all parties in a war. President Roosevelt violated that law to assist the United Kingdom. Was he a traitor? > [@](#): > > If helping Russia to avoid consequences for meddling in our elections isn’t aid and comfort, what is it? Aid and comfort, within the meaning of the treason statute, requires an enemy in a declared war. Giving aid and comfort to Russia is not treason under the law. What is “aid and comfort?” The legal definition requires an act that deliberately strengthens declared enemies of United States or that weakens the power of United States to resist and attack such declared enemies. Now, if we’re talking “traitor,” in a less formal sense than the legal one, then I’d like to know what the definition you’re using is. ---
**Author:** ![betterlifethroughchemistry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/betterlifethroughchemistry/32/3094_2.png) [@betterlifethroughchemistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betterlifethroughchemistry)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/113 "2018-07-19T01:47:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Holy shit, people are still talking about Uranium One. Well, let’s see. [The timing of the donations doesn’t match.](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/) > > In the Obama matter, yes he told the puppet Medvedev that he’d have more flexibility in talking about missile reductions after the election. That’s how it works, sometimes delicate negotiations have to wait till after elections. At least there was no Obama pee tape that Medvedev held over his head. “At least there was no Obama pee tape that Medvedev held over his head”…come on, stop it, please do not insult my and the other SDMB readers’ intelligence - had there been a tape, it would have top news… “In the Obama matter, yes he told the puppet Medvedev that he’d have more flexibility in talking about missile reductions after the election. That’s how it works, sometimes delicate negotiations have to wait till after elections.” Wait, so, sometimes American officials had delicate discussions with foreign governments and that’s OK in your opinion? So, the recent Trump discussions with Putin are somehow treasonous, but Obama’s were delicate negotiations? This is exactly the hypocrisy I see all the time in SDMB, yes, I know it’s a Chicago Tribute site, but the so-called ‘tolerant’ liberals here are the most intolerant, closed-minded people I’ve seen politically…they ridicule middle Americans, laugh at people such as myself, to be a libertarian, or, gasp, a conservative, means to be ridiculed as an idiot…I have a undergraduate degree in chemistry, I have a Masters in chemistry, I believe many libertarian/conservative SDMB members keep their mouths shut as they don’t want the attention… ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/114 "2018-07-19T01:50:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree. > > I agree. > > I agree. > > So accepting all that you have said as true, here’s the part I don’t yet see strong evidence for: “…in exchange for agreeing to allow those agents to dictate foreign policy once you are elected…” I feel at this point there is very strong circumstantial evidence supporting the inference, but I agree that the known evidence currently falls short of a “reasonable doubt” standard. Wow! We actually agree on things! Who says civil discourse is dead?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/115 "2018-07-19T02:10:38Z")
> [@betterlifethroughchemistry](#): > > “At least there was no Obama pee tape that Medvedev held over his head”…come on, stop it, please do not insult my and the other SDMB readers’ intelligence - had there been a tape, it would have top news… > > “In the Obama matter, yes he told the puppet Medvedev that he’d have more flexibility in talking about missile reductions after the election. That’s how it works, sometimes delicate negotiations have to wait till after elections.” > > Wait, so, sometimes American officials had delicate discussions with foreign governments and that’s OK in your opinion? So, the recent Trump discussions with Putin are somehow treasonous, but Obama’s were delicate negotiations? > > This is exactly the hypocrisy I see all the time in SDMB, yes, I know it’s a Chicago Tribute site, but the so-called ‘tolerant’ liberals here are the most intolerant, closed-minded people I’ve seen politically…they ridicule middle Americans, laugh at people such as myself, to be a libertarian, or, gasp, a conservative, means to be ridiculed as an idiot…I have a undergraduate degree in chemistry, I have a Masters in chemistry, I believe many libertarian/conservative SDMB members keep their mouths shut as they don’t want the attention… A chemistry degree is essentially meaningless in a political discussion. Unless you can calculate exactly how drunk some of the participants are. 🙂 A conservative - in favour of smaller government and lower taxes for example - doesn’t always equal a Trump supporter. Trump’s problem is not “being a conservative” - it’s being corrupt and unethical. That is not a conservative/liberal division but a stupid/smart division, and you are on the stupid side of it at the moment. I suggest you reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![betterlifethroughchemistry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/betterlifethroughchemistry/32/3094_2.png) [@betterlifethroughchemistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betterlifethroughchemistry)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/116 "2018-07-19T02:28:14Z")
[QUOTE=DavidwithanR;21094478. That is not a conservative/liberal division but a stupid/smart division, and you are on the stupid side of it at the moment. I suggest you reconsider.[/QUOTE] Gosh, you are right, I am quivering in the face of your logic… Come on, seriously? I never said I was a Trump supporter, I said I was in favor of intelligent discourse… “.and you are on the stupid side of it at the moment. I suggest you reconsider.” Well, you’ve given such a compelling argument…:smack:…sigh… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/117 "2018-07-19T03:14:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [This thread, for starters.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18176960&postcount=1) Did you think I wouldn’t bother to read the whole thread? Not only were none of the three terms in question used in that thread, but there was a good reason: That thread was from early 2015. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/118 "2018-07-19T03:34:43Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Because his followers are idiots and imitating idiots is unwise? And just look at how they idioted themselves into controlling the country! We wouldn’t want that to happen to the Democrats, would we? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/119 "2018-07-19T03:34:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Nothing in his life suggests anything other than an entitled, egotistical, narcissist. > He has loyalty only to himself so from his POV he only has to worry about pleasing himself. > For him, the concept of “traitor” is only useful as a label he can apply to others in order to further benefit himself. > I have not the slightest doubt whatsoever that only a quirk of birth and the restrictions of a democratic society have prevented him from becoming a gold-plating, harem-hoarding, dissenter-torturing dictator. ITA. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/120 "2018-07-19T03:40:30Z")
> [@betterlifethroughchemistry](#): > > Gosh, you are right, I am quivering in the face of your logic… > > Come on, seriously? I never said I was a Trump supporter, I said I was in favor of intelligent discourse… > > “.and you are on the stupid side of it at the moment. I suggest you reconsider.” > > Well, you’ve given such a compelling argument…:smack:…sigh… Let say for the moment that your a reasonable, moderate conservative. If that’s true, then certainly you must recognize that the Republicans have made an unholy alliance with anti-intellectualism, nationalists, and other extreme elements for maintaining short term political power that is in the long term dangerous for the USA. So, if many reasonable, moderate conservatives won’t punish them at the ballot box, or repudiating their actions in public discourse, for making such alliances, then what does that mean for the country? Answer, it isn’t good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=7)