# Is Trump, plain and simple, a traitor to his country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154 "2018-07-18T16:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/141 "2018-07-19T15:16:22Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Several people in this thread have said something along the lines of “should happen, but won’t,” but I’m really interested in why not. I mean, there has to be a tipping point, right? There has to be a line where even the staunchest Republicans will realize loyalty to this president is no longer sustainable. Right? > > Right? Please? Trump threw hateful racist accusations against Obama, and they didn’t care. Trump threw hateful racist accusations against Mexicans, and they didn’t care. Trump told Russia to hack Hillary’s computers, and they didn’t care. Trump said he wanted to grab women by the pussy, and they didn’t care. Trump attacked American veterans and prisoners of war, and they didn’t care. Trump lied about saving American jobs, and they didn’t care. Trump lied about fixing our health care, and they didn’t care. Trump violated the Constitution by using his office to enrich himself, and they didn’t care. Trump attacked the integrity of journalists and the judiciary, and they didn’t care. Trump committed obstruction of justice and fired the director of the FBI, and they didn’t care. Trump attacks American allies and praises vicious dictators, and they didn’t care. Trump separates refugee children from their families as a form of punishment and deterrence, and they didn’t care. Trump bullies, insults, and spreads malicious lies about anyone who disagrees with him, and they didn’t care. Trump repeatedly denied the findings of US law enforcement and intelligence agencies, and they didn’t care. Multiple members of Trump’s administration have been indicted or convicted of crimes related to their misconduct regarding Russia, and they didn’t care. Trump Jr admitted he lied about his secret Russian contacts, and hey didn’t care. Trump lies daily, repeatedly, to no purpose, and contradicts himself from one day to the next, and they don’t care. The Republicans and conservatives - as a whole - have been characterized by their absolute unwillingness to contradict or condemn anything Trump says or does. So the question you are asking is the same question the rest of us have been asking since before the election. What does Trump have to do in order for people to reject him? And every day it looks like the answer is “nothing.” There is no lie he could tell, no obscenity he could utter, no promise he could break, no trust he could betray that would actually cause people to lose faith in him. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/142 "2018-07-19T15:20:43Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > No, that’s one of two definitions. The more longstanding definition of ‘traitor’ is ‘someone who betrays.’ > > This definition predates (by centuries, AFAICT) the definition of ‘treason’ as a legal term of art. When speaking of a president of the United States, the legal term of art is what matters. If he’s a traitor by the legal definition, I hope and expect the electric chair to be brought out. If he merely fits the basic definition, which has been obvious for a long time, he will most certainly weasel out of any consequence or responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/143 "2018-07-19T15:22:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No. It isn’t that he is too dumb to be a traitor. It is that he doesn’t give a flying fuck whether he is a traitor, as long as he gets his. The man is immoral. I agree. (More below.) > [@Bricker](#): > > But wait a second. Is it possible to assume that the policy of the United States was to improve relations with Russia and the detriment to the US and Israel was an acceptable price to pay? > . . . > Why is your judgement about the relative value of these competing goals the one that controls this analysis? > . . . To the second: Because I am the one developing and expressing this particular opinion. No authority has been identified for the sake of this discussion. To the first: Given the responses in the press by people who would reasonably be expected to know what policy was in place, I’d say that what he did was at best an impulsive blunder. Can acts of idiocy be declared traitorous? > [@Bricker](#): > > . . . > > In 1935, Congress passed and President Roosevelt signed the first of the Neutrality Acts. This created a legal embargo on trade in both arms and other war materials with all parties in a war. President Roosevelt violated that law to assist the United Kingdom. > > Was he a traitor? > . . . I don’t know enough about that situation to render an opinion. But my decision would rest upon his analysis and cooperation with other high officials (whether this was an agreed-upon change in policy based upon the best interests of the USA), and whether there was an attempt to produce personal gain. > [@Bricker](#): > > . . . > Aid and comfort, within the meaning of the treason statute, requires an enemy in a declared war. Giving aid and comfort to Russia is not treason under the law. > > What is “aid and comfort?” The legal definition requires an act that deliberately strengthens declared enemies of United States or that weakens the power of United States to resist and attack such declared enemies. > > Now, if we’re talking “traitor,” in a less formal sense than the legal one, then I’d like to know what the definition you’re using is. Was Aldrich Ames a traitor? Was Richard Hansen? I don’t understand the formal charges or their legal basis but I know that Hansen pleaded down in order to avoid the death penalty, yet we were not at war with Russia at the time. Mr. Trump openly declared his intent to be the first person to profit from the Presidency. His “blunders” taken in that context, and in light of the information we’ve received about his financial dealings with Russian oligarchs, defy the “idiot” defense. They also defy the “accident” and “secret US interests” defenses. Mr. Trump has made his sole approach to all decisions very clear: it is based solely upon his own personal benefit. That makes him a traitor in every case, regardless of the outcome. (thereby defying the “no harm, no foul” defense.) He is not using a Presidential yard stick, regardless of the weight of the decision. He is still using the yard stick of a money-grubbing private citizen. > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > ITA. What does this mean? International Trade Agreement? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/144 "2018-07-19T15:28:05Z")
Trump is not a ‘traitor’ in the conventional sense - but IMHO, he is a traitor to the ideas this country was founded upon and to the progress this country has made over the past 200 + years. He’s also a traitor to the office, in that he is disgracing it in a way that we will not recover from easily. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/145 "2018-07-19T15:33:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I would suggest weakening the US relationship with NATO (which Trump did) and the US starting a trade war among its closest trading partners (which Trump seems to be trying to do) are definitely in the best interests of Russia. > > Not to mention further polarizing the US electorate and undermining the media (which Trump does practically daily). All great destabilizing things Russia likes to see (they worked towards that goal after all). > > More concretely Trump [opposed sanctions](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/us/politics/trump-russia-sanctions.html) against Russia. It would seem to me that leaders of countries that sign a treaty promising to spend a certain amount on defense and then not fulfilling their commitments are as responsible for weakening NATO as the president who calls them out on it. Are they guilty of treason as well?, how far does this conspiracy go? Likewise if the leaders of the other countries would drop tariffs on US goods the trade war would be over, are they traitors too? Isn’t accusing the president of being a traitor polarizing the electorate? Maybe the OP is a traitor. I know alot of people on the left have been critical of Fox News and try to undermine other forms of conservative media. They must be traitors too. Since when do liberals think being a traitor a bad thing? When Chelsea Manning released classified government secrets as a part of the military to the Russian intelligence site Wikileaks, she was pardoned by Obama. Edward Snowden also released classified secrets to Russian intelligence and Bernie Sanders said he did a great service. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/146 "2018-07-19T15:38:16Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > So the question you are asking is the same question the rest of us have been asking since before the election. What does Trump have to do in order for people to reject him? And every day it looks like the answer is “nothing.” There is no lie he could tell, no obscenity he could utter, no promise he could break, no trust he could betray that would actually cause people to lose faith in him. I tend to agree, but I hope we’re both wrong. Many Republicans now call the Iraq war a mistake and hold the W administration responsible for its consequences. (Of course, this hindsight came far too late and too timidly to stop the disaster before it started.) My sincerest hope is that Mueller will turn up something that makes Republicans say, “Holy shit, this guy sold us out. He needs to go, now.” Of course, as I type this, I realize why it’s so unlikely – because it would mean telling voters “Hey, you were fooled, and we helped fool you.” ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/147 "2018-07-19T15:46:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Isn’t accusing the president of being a traitor polarizing the electorate? Maybe the OP is a traitor. > I know alot of people on the left have been critical of Fox News and try to undermine other forms of conservative media. They must be traitors too. > > Since when do liberals think being a traitor a bad thing? When Chelsea Manning released classified government secrets as a part of the military to the Russian intelligence site Wikileaks, she was pardoned by Obama. Edward Snowden also released classified secrets to Russian intelligence and Bernie Sanders said he did a great service. Those examples are moronic. Equating free speech by private citizens with a POTUS making back-door deals with a foreign power? Snowden and Manning faced severe consequences for their actions. (FTR, I recoiled at Obama’s pardon and believe Sanders is way offbase.) So can we count you as backing severe consequences for Trump if collusion with Russia is proven? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/148 "2018-07-19T15:50:07Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > When speaking of a president of the United States, the legal term of art is what matters. If he’s a traitor by the legal definition, I hope and expect the electric chair to be brought out. If he merely fits the basic definition, which has been obvious for a long time, he will most certainly weasel out of any consequence or responsibility. I didn’t realize we were in an impeachment proceeding or other legal proceeding. I was responding to the question in the thread title, restated in the OP as: “is he literally acting on Russia’s behalf to undermine the United States?” Accordingly, my take is that the more colloquial definition applies. Because that question can have an affirmative answer whether or not his conduct qualifies as treason. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/149 "2018-07-19T16:33:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I didn’t realize we were in an impeachment proceeding or other legal proceeding. > > I was responding to the question in the thread title, restated in the OP as: “is he literally acting on Russia’s behalf to undermine the United States?” Accordingly, my take is that the more colloquial definition applies. Because that question can have an affirmative answer whether or not his conduct qualifies as treason. What about the phrase “I don’t mean a metaphorical traitor to specific values, or to the people who support him…” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/150 "2018-07-19T16:36:43Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Trump is not a ‘traitor’ in the conventional sense - but IMHO, he is a traitor to the ideas this country was founded upon and to the progress this country has made over the past 200 + years. Was one of the ideas this country was founded on the concept that we elect representative leaders and grant them the power to makes laws and policies? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/151 "2018-07-19T16:38:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did you think I wouldn’t bother to read the whole thread? Not only were none of the three terms in question used in that thread, but there was a good reason: That thread was from early 2015. I did not realize you were asking for my response to the use of those literal words; I took your question to be a more general one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/152 "2018-07-19T16:42:05Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > To the second: Because I am the one developing and expressing this particular opinion. No authority has been identified for the sake of this discussion. Then no debate is necessary. You’ve advanced your opinion. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/153 "2018-07-19T16:53:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The president will be ‘sustainable’ until and unless such rock solid evidence is found and presented. However depressing I find it, I can’t argue with your conclusion. I think what’s going on with Trump is exactly why the Founders defined the grounds for impeachment as loosely as they did. It’s quite possible for a President to be wantonly destructive towards our country without violating any statutes. I believe the way it _should_ work is that such a President should be removable on the basis of the damage he’s already done to the country, and the damage he will almost surely do if left in power. But that’s not the way it _will_ work. Even if twenty GOP Senators were to resign and be replaced by Democrats, they’d still need the fig leaf of a crime to impeach, country be damned. Fortunately for that hypothetical world, Mueller surely has more than sufficient evidence that Trump has obstructed justice, and at some point it will come into the House’s possession. But under the optimistic scenario for next year (Dems win a 51-49 Senate majority), 16 GOP Senators would need to be convinced to vote for conviction. Would they do so even if presented with overwhelming evidence of obstruction of justice? “Outlook not so good,” says my magic 8-ball. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/154 "2018-07-19T16:54:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What about the phrase “I don’t mean a metaphorical traitor to specific values, or to the people who support him…” Well, what about it? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/155 "2018-07-19T17:04:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, what about it? 😕 Does that phrase suggest the OP is not speaking of metaphorical traitoring, but specific, definable traitoring? ETA: Didn’t know ‘traitor’ had a gerund form, didja? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/156 "2018-07-19T17:09:38Z")
Isn’t a traitor someone who traits? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/157 "2018-07-19T17:19:36Z")
And if they trait while wearing a Halloween mask, they’re a tricky traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/158 "2018-07-19T17:26:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Because you want something to happen and think it should isn’t any sort of metric for it happening. Thus far, there has been no solid, conclusive evidence that Trump did anything illegal. There is some fairly compelling circumstantial evidence, but nothing solid enough to take to court…even if we weren’t talking about a sitting president. The bar for him to actually be found guilty of treason is very high, so I don’t see that happening. The bar for ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ is, well, whatever Congress thinks it is, and with the Republicans in charge (or even if the Dems had a slight edge after the next election cycle) it’s going to take rock solid evidence that Trump knowingly colluded with Russia to rig the election for him to even be impeached. > > So, you really need to turn this around. The president will be ‘sustainable’ until and unless such rock solid evidence is found and presented. The GOP leadership isn’t going to go along with even an impeachment, let alone a treason trial until and unless such evidence is presented. No amount of dislike or folks on message boards connecting dots and making speculative comments about pee tapes or Russian bankers threats is going to rise to the level of real action. I recall from the Bush years how convinced the majority of this board was that, once a Democrat was in the top seat and the Dems controlled Congress that Bush was going to jail. The first two things happened, but Bush is still prison orange free at this point. Nor have the European nations made a real effort to extradite him or send in sekrit skuurl agents to take him off for war crimes trials. > > In Trump’s case, IF such evidence is found I think he will go down. But until someone is presenting hard evidence that Trump colluded with the Russians wrt the election then nothing is going to happen. Yes, it’s true that there is currently no hard evidence that Trump colluded with Russia, only “fairly compelling circumstantial evidence”. However, given that the investigation is ongoing, and that more and more compelling circumstantial evidence emerges on almost a daily basis, it seems like the reasonable assumption is that hard evidence exists and will be forthcoming at some time in the fairly near future. When billowing clouds of smoke are blotting out the sun, the smart money is on there being a fire somewhere. But it’s true, at the moment we can’t rule out the possibility that it’s just a Grateful Dead concert or something. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/159 "2018-07-19T17:29:16Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > No, he’s not a traitor. > > He says a lot of stupid shit. This stupid shit talk has probably demoralized our allies and probably emboldens our enemies. > > He has this idea that if you strongarm friends to squeeze out what you want, and flatter enemies to get what you want. It’s completely wrong-headed, and dumb, but not treason. We’ll have to see how that works out, so far Putin hasn’t taken over any more countries on his watch. > > His stupid shit talk fortunately does not totally match up with the actual policy coming out of the white house. I doubt he really does much, if anything, regarding policy, he his underlings take care of that. The main thing is he has a very 1950’s outlook on trade and I think these tariffs are gonna hurt us. Congress needs to wrest back power in terms of tariffs for sure. If it was demonstrated that Trump was literally working with Putin to serve Russia’s interests at the expense of America’s interests, consistently and with clearly deliberate intent, would ‘he’s too stupid to be a traitor’ still be an applicable defense? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154/160 "2018-07-19T18:16:23Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Yes, it’s true that there is currently no hard evidence that Trump colluded with Russia, only “fairly compelling circumstantial evidence”. However, given that the investigation is ongoing, and that more and more compelling circumstantial evidence emerges on almost a daily basis, it seems like the reasonable assumption is that hard evidence exists and will be forthcoming at some time in the fairly near future. > > When billowing clouds of smoke are blotting out the sun, the smart money is on there being a fire somewhere. But it’s true, at the moment we can’t rule out the possibility that it’s just a Grateful Dead concert or something. We don’t know what Mueller has in his files. The evidence for obstruction of justice is pretty clear. And remember that Nixon did not personally break into the Watergate offices, or even give specific directions to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plain-and-simple-a-traitor-to-his-country/818154.md?page=9)