# Is Trump plotting a judiciary coup? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2020, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418 "2020-09-24T14:25:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/21 "2020-09-24T18:28:34Z")
Who the hell is Trump fooling, at least among those with real power and influence in this country? These aren’t his convention crowds. He’s been basically telling everyone since 2016, “hey, this is a blockchain scam. This is a fraud that is going to benefit mostly, if not only, myself. If you invest in this, you’ll probably take a bath, and I get all the reward.” There are people prone to such tactics, sure, but don’t they usually get fleeced before they get even a whiff of power and influence? Now, I realize that the 1% are people too. They think like humans because they are human. I get that. I get that Trump has “outsmarted” (or at least out-forced) a lot of people. But I have yet to see evidence that anyone who counts in government thinks that they’ll be as good or better off under Fuhrer Trump than they are now. I’m not discounting the idea that someone in the future could succeed (ironically, I think it’ll take at the least someone _less_ selfish than Trump), but I don’t think it’s this guy. I don’t think he’s the brilliant manipulator Scott Adams thinks he is, or the invincible ubermensch Trump himself thinks he is. Agree to disagree, I guess. We might see who’s right real soon now. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/22 "2020-09-24T18:32:19Z")
As a third-party voter with no dog in the fight, I will say that part of me is fascinated to see a constitutional crisis unfold. It would be interesting to see how the arcane rules, all of that stuff, plays out in real life. I am hoping for a very narrow close vote, but no violence. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/23 "2020-09-24T18:35:47Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Let’s say Election Day comes and goes and Biden appears to have won. But wait: the Trump Admin files a lawsuit in Pennsylvania, asking that all mail-in ballots be thrown out, because…reasons. > > What are the chances that that suit is decided by a **judge appointed by Trump**? Would that judge be required to recuse themself? None. It would happen in state court, not federal. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/24 "2020-09-24T19:47:47Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Who the hell is Trump fooling, at least among those with real power and influence in this country? Only the heads of all the executive agencies, the Majority Leader in the senate and those who follow his lead, and the SCOTUS that he is foisting onto the court. But that’s enough. > [@Leaper](#): > > But I have yet to see evidence that anyone who counts in government thinks that they’ll be as good or better off under Fuhrer Trump than they are now. I take it that you haven’t been paying any attention to what the head of the Department of Justice has been saying, then. > [@Leaper](#): > > Agree to disagree, I guess. We might see who’s right real soon now. If you are right, then great. If I am right, then we’re kinda fucked. I’d rather be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/25 "2020-09-24T19:51:53Z")
As an alien researcher who is just visiting on an anthropological study, I agree, it would be interesting to see it unfold. But, just as a house fire or car accident are far more interesting as an observer than a participant, until the mothership beams me up, I’d rather not watch from the inside. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/26 "2020-09-24T20:04:27Z")
Shorty answer: Yes. Long answer: YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS. Anything. He’ll do anything. Know this, believe this, prepare for this. We’ll be in the streets before this is all done. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/27 "2020-09-24T20:34:55Z")
Well, that makes me feel a teensy bit better. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/28 "2020-09-24T20:34:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Only the heads of all the executive agencies, the Majority Leader in the senate and those who follow his lead, and the SCOTUS that he is foisting onto the court. Okay, I think this is where we differ in opinion. I don’t count most of those people as being “fooled by Trump.” I think McConnell, for example, enables Trump for his own benefit. I think he knows exactly what Trump is. What benefit does HE get out of making his own job irrelevant? Does he really think Trump will shower rewards on him when Trump becomes dictator? Same with the SCOTUS. Trump’s appointees may be ideologues, but are they going to vote themselves into irrelevance? What reward do they expect for doing so? What does that do for the ideals they want to push? Is there any evidence they feel personal loyalty towards Trump? The only person whose behavior leads me to think they may be “fooled” is Barr, partly for reasons you allude to in your last post. For the rest, for the billionaires who have a lot to lose if the economy craters or the United States becomes fascist under someone as selfish and unstable as Trump, I just don’t see what they have to gain, nor do I see any evidence that they think they have something significant to gain or that they have any personal reason to support a Fuhrer Trump. But like I said, agree to disagree. Discord is nagging me about all the replies now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/29 "2020-09-24T20:49:34Z")
They all assume that they will have positions of power after the coup. And some of them, many of them will. McConnel doesn’t think that he is making his job irrelevant, he thinks he will be getting a promotion, and he very well might. His appointees will continue to head the agencies that they are appointed to, except now without fear of political or legal consequence if they break rules and laws. A dictatorship is not one person directing the entirety of the country on his own, he has people who work for him, who in many ways hold the real power. The people propping him politically up expect those positions. The wealthy expect to be part of an oligopoly that owns and controls the wealth of the country. If what you say you don’t understand is not possible, then there has never been a dictatorship, and never will be, anywhere in the world. If you can tell me what the generals and appointees who supported Muammar Gaddafi, or Saddam Hussein, or even, as you have alluded to a few times in this discussion, Hitler himself, got out of the deal, then you won’t have to ask me what those who support a Trump coup would get out of it either. We can agree to disagree, but this is directly relevant to the OP, plus you posed quite a number of questions in your post. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/30 "2020-09-24T20:50:23Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > None. It would happen in state court, not federal. The 2000 Supreme Court ruling stopping the Florida recount was an overturning of the decision of the Florida Supreme Court. A lot of election litigation may start in state courts but I guarantee it’ll end up in federal courts. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/31 "2020-09-24T21:08:12Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Not that I want my theory to be tested, but I think folks in this thread overestimate the number of people who actually personally like and believe in Trump, especially if supporting him would put their own personal power into jeopardy, which such a coup would do to Congress and the courts. I’ve something similar along the line, and I agree with this. A lot of Republicans have of course supported Trump while he has been in office, but these people (I’m thinking of Lindsay Graham at the moment) are smart enough to realize that if Trump loses, he won’t have a legitimate argument to make about it, and there’s no way those supporters will stay on Trump’s sinking ship. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/32 "2020-09-24T21:49:19Z")
> [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#): > > We’ll be in the streets before this is all done. Probably not until it’s too late. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/33 "2020-09-24T21:53:47Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I think McConnell, for example, enables Trump for his own benefit. I think he knows exactly what Trump is. What benefit does HE get out of making his own job irrelevant? Does he really think Trump will shower rewards on him when Trump becomes dictator? Same with the SCOTUS. Trump’s appointees may be ideologues, but are they going to vote themselves into irrelevance? It’s called miscalculation: they assume things won’t get too far out of hand. The believe in their cause and they believe that Trump is helping it, so they assume that he will eventually be gone in 4 years. He’s just running for re-election after all; it’s not like Trump is demanding a second constitutional convention. So they tell themselves. Without realizing that they’ve set into motion dynamics that we be very difficult to reverse. The thing about authoritarianism is in almost every case, once democracy collapses and becomes something else, it’s very, very difficult to reverse course. It fundamentally alters the character of the political culture, if not the social culture as well. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/34 "2020-09-24T22:27:54Z")
Well, this would be the time for them to repudiate him, if they are going to. Be allowing his behavior, they are already complicit. They have already made their choice. If McConnel et al. come out and explicitly say that they will ensure that there is peaceful transition of power to the rightful winner of a free and fair election, then maybe they can be taken at their word, maybe. But when they do not, when they just let Trump make these announcements that he will not accept a loss, then they should be taken at their word that they will continue to allow Trump to run roughshod over the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/35 "2020-09-24T22:28:39Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Probably not until it’s too late. There seems to be a lot of chatter on the message boards I visit worrying about Trump stealing the election. It’s getting attention, it’s on people’s minds more and more. [Bernie Sanders gave a rousing speech on the subject today.](https://youtu.be/nDrjXBYrHpo) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/36 "2020-09-24T23:04:12Z")
If they had principles, yes, this would be the perfect time. And yes, they are definitely complicit. But they want him to win, and if they come out now and repudiate him, that would hurt his already weak chances. So instead, they keep quiet, hoping that he does win, but if he doesn’t, are IMO opinion ready to drop him. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/37 "2020-09-25T02:47:20Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Sure, but that assumes that Trump will share any of his newfound power. Why should they think he would do so? If he’s a dictator, why would he need anyone else? What reason do they have to think that he just won’t dissolve Congress, tear down the courts, kick them all to the ghettos, and live as the single fat cat among pigeons? At least in a democracy, they’ll keep their money, and can graduate to some cushy crony job, instead of having all their stuff confiscated by Herr Trump and warming themselves next to an oil barrel. Exactly. And this goes for his fans, too. Trump doesn’t give a shit about them. I mean, he obviously doesn’t care if they die because they went to a rally. I wish they could understand that once he’s used them to gain control, what happens in their lives is of no consequence to him. But, unfortunately, I don’t they are capable of grasping this. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/38 "2020-09-25T13:13:46Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > So instead, they keep quiet, hoping that he does win, but if he doesn’t, are IMO opinion ready to drop him. My only disagreement here is that they are not idly hoping, but actively doing everything they can to make him win. And by “win”, I mean stay in power, even if it is not the wishes of the voters. If they can’t manage that, then sure, they’ll drop him. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/39 "2020-09-25T13:21:52Z")
What is Trump’s current win/loss record in the courts to stop mail-in balloting and post-election day ballot counting? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418/40 "2020-09-25T13:51:34Z")
The obvious avenue for a coup is, unfortunately, 100% Constitutional. I refer you to the second paragraph of Article II, Section 1: “Each State shall appoint, _ **in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct** _, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress…” And it’s been in the news that the Trump campaign has been in conversations with Republicans in state legislatures to take advantage of this clause. The Florida legislature seriously considered picking its own slate of electors back in 2000. The GOP controls the legislatures of pretty much all the swing states right now. If any of the current leaders of any of the houses of those legislatures have publicly said, “no way we’d do that,” I’ve missed it. I can’t see how a court would overturn such an action: the state legislatures’ power to pull a trick like this is, as noted, expressly stated in the Constitution. Even a court that had zero Trump judges would have to give it the green light. But it would still be a complete and total repudiation of democracy. It would be a coup, despite using Constitutional means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-plotting-a-judiciary-coup/921418.md?page=3)