# Is Trump the closest we've come to losing our democratic government **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 15, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998 "2020-02-15T23:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/21 "2020-02-16T04:30:38Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > In a serious answer to your question, **Lucas Jackson** , yes. I think we’re in more trouble than we’ve ever been since the Civil War… > > … The rule of law is the very foundation for our government, the notion that all persons are created equal under the law and must receive like protections and punishments. If Trump successfully breaks it, we may not recover from that. Thanks for your input. In other news, Trump is now essentially referring to himself as a king: [https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/trump-sparks-outrage-quoting-emerson-refer-himself-king.amp](https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/trump-sparks-outrage-quoting-emerson-refer-himself-king.amp) Right on cue. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/22 "2020-02-16T05:20:11Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Well, if you go by executive orders, he’s about average for recent Presidents. A comment came to mind when I read this, but … > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Wow. … I was Ninja’ed. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/23 "2020-02-16T05:34:10Z")
Black people in America have lived under a dictatorship for most of their time here. Slavery, then Jim Crow. Even after those things they had to do with police brutality and disenfranchisement. Also we had laws against free speech in WW1, people were getting very long prison sentences for speaking out against the war. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/24 "2020-02-16T06:36:33Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > In other news, Trump is now essentially referring to himself as a king: > [https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/trump-sparks-outrage-quoting-emerson-refer-himself-king.amp](https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/trump-sparks-outrage-quoting-emerson-refer-himself-king.amp) Have you a link that’s HTML and not [AMP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Mobile_Pages#Reception)? No need giving Google the entire internet yet. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/25 "2020-02-16T07:26:18Z")
Here is the content of both Trump tweets on the subject: “Ralph Waldo Emerson seemed to foresee the lesson of the Senate Impeachment Trial of President Trump. ‘When you strike at the King, Emerson famously said, “you must kill him.’ Mr. Trump’s foes struck at him but did not take him down. A triumphant Mr.Trump emerges from the…" “…biggest test of his presidency emboldened, ready to claim exoneration, and take his case of grievance, persecution and resentment to the campaign trail.” Peter Baker@nytimes The Greatest Witch Hunt In American History!” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/26 "2020-02-16T14:41:24Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Right - my point about McConnell is that without him, Trump would not be so ‘successful’ at his games. > > Trump is just doing exactly what we knew Trump would do - ignore all sense of decorum, and run the country like a mob boss - but all of those things would be held in check if both houses of Congress would/could do the job - and McConnell ensures they wont. > > But Trump is only 1 piece - we don’t “lose democracy” until the other 2 pieces fall lockstep with the would be king - and it’s McConnell that is causing that part. Second what Aspenglow said (Aspenglow’s summary was pretty accurate,too). It’s the gradual erosion of the separation of powers that constitutes the current crisis, and it’s hard to think of a time in which the legislative has encouraged the president to abuse and expand his powers and privileges the way we’ve witnessed these last few years. The way the Constitution was designed, the powers essentially competed with each other - that’s the fundamental assumption that makes separation of powers function successfully or at least function as the Framers envisioned. McConnell and the GOP had a 2-year head start on Pelosi’s House, which can only slow down the machine at this point. Meanwhile, Trump and McConnell are rapidly transforming the federal judiciary, filling vacancies with ideologues who are long on right wing dogma and quite short on qualifications to be jurists. It’s the judiciary that is the linchpin of the conservative strategy. A combination of a legislative that forgives transgressions of executive power is signaling that there are absolutely no consequences for anything he chooses to do. And over time, an ideologically-driven judiciary sanctions it all under the cloak of judicial impartiality and the rule of law. That’s how self-governance unravels. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/27 "2020-02-16T14:58:47Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Have you a link that’s HTML and not [AMP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Mobile_Pages#Reception)? No need giving Google the entire internet yet. [Here ya go](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/trump-sparks-outrage-quoting-emerson-refer-himself-king.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/28 "2020-02-17T01:49:10Z")
Lincoln and FDR come to mind. But they arent controversial enough and everybody likes them so it’s ok ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/29 "2020-02-17T03:57:32Z")
I’ll admit I’m not as knowledgeable about Lincoln as I could be. Was he a proven liar, did he illegally silence his accusers and did he abuse executive power? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/30 "2020-02-17T04:03:47Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I’ll admit I’m not as knowledgeable about Lincoln as I could be. Was he a proven liar, did he illegally silence his accusers and did he abuse executive power? [Habeas Corpus Suspension Act (1863)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_Corpus_Suspension_Act_(1863)) > [@](#): > > The Habeas Corpus Suspension, 12 Stat. 755 (1863), entitled An Act relating to Habeas Corpus, and regulating Judicial Proceedings in Certain Cases, was an Act of Congress that authorized the president of the United States to suspend the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus in response to the American Civil War and provided for the release of political prisoners. It began in the House of Representatives as an indemnity bill, introduced on December 5, 1862, releasing the president and his subordinates from any liability for having suspended habeas corpus without congressional approval.[1] The Senate amended the House’s bill,[2] and the compromise reported out of the conference committee altered it to qualify the indemnity and to suspend habeas corpus on Congress’s own authority.[3] Abraham Lincoln signed the bill into law on March 3, 1863, and suspended habeas corpus under the authority it granted him six months later. **The suspension was partially lifted with the issuance of Proclamation 148 by Andrew Johnson,[4] and the Act became inoperative with the end of the Civil War.** ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/31 "2020-02-18T04:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > rig the next election, or cancel it. My personal opinion is that if Trump tried to cancel the next election he would be impeached so fast it would make your head swim. And the Senate would ratify he impeachment the next day. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/32 "2020-02-18T06:10:32Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > My personal opinion is that if Trump tried to cancel the next election he would be impeached so fast it would make your head swim. And the Senate would ratify he impeachment the next day. If he fears his treasons will be exposed, expect declarations of national emergency and martial law. Enemies of the state aka Democrats will be detained “for their own safety” so no further impeachment(s) will be possible. Approved candidates not in detention will adorn simplified single-choice ballots which, being cast, will be examined for irregularities like failing to vote for the approved candidates. The GOP will win with a 99%+ margin! Sure, something like an election will occur, just as something like a trial happened. Please convince me I’m overly pessimistic. Do so before we’re incarcerated. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/33 "2020-02-18T06:17:24Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > … has any other president acted so boldly like a king and caused such division in our citizenry? Extraordinary times and circumstances were in play but Abe Lincoln suspended _habeus corpus_ and declared martial law in Kentucky. And his election platform sparked a civil war. So that was a degree of division a just a tad above what you are seeing now within the body politic. _and I’ll defer to running coache’s cite._ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/34 "2020-02-18T07:06:23Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > My personal opinion is that if Trump tried to cancel the next election he would be impeached so fast it would make your head swim. And the Senate would ratify he impeachment the next day. “If Trump does (fill in the blank) he will be impeached so fast your head will swim”-How many times have we heard this or somethin damn close to it over the last three years? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/35 "2020-02-18T13:21:52Z")
As we get closer to the election and the numbers don’t look good for Donald, I expect him to float a trial balloon or two. And after not lifting a finger to prevent it, I fully expect Republicans to raise a stink should there be even the slightest allegations of election chicanery. There should be no doubt left in anyone’s mind by now that the 21st century GOP believes in power more than it believes in democracy. And that has to be a little worrisome for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/36 "2020-02-18T14:18:55Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > They agreed that soliciting _any_ interference in our elections, including and especially _foreign_ interference, was the pinnacle of unfit behavior. That’s the part I can’t quite wrap my head around. I keep thinking that had the Russians tried to interfere in our elections and got caught in say… 1965, that would have been considered an act of war, and would have made the Cuban Missile Crisis look like a mild disagreement. But now, we have it happening, and we have the party in power shrugging their shoulders and going “Meh.” and even more baffling, it’s the self-identified party of “American” values, patriotism, home, hearth and all that stuff. The very party that _should_ be absolutely losing their shit about it. What’s even more baffling is that the Republican base- the rural, hyper-conservative (reactionary even?) super-traditional sorts seem to be fine with it. Or if they’re not fine with it, it’s because they’ve been completely gulled by “fake news” or something along those lines. I think that last part is the _real_ threat to democracy in the US; the polarization of the news media. We can’t go around only reading Fox News or Daily Kos in a vacuum; the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But millions of people do just that every day; they read their own propaganda outlets and take it as God’s own truth. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/37 "2020-02-18T14:32:45Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s the part I can’t quite wrap my head around. I keep thinking that had the Russians tried to interfere in our elections and got caught in say… 1965, that would have been considered an act of war, and would have made the Cuban Missile Crisis look like a mild disagreement. > > But now, we have it happening, and we have the party in power shrugging their shoulders and going “Meh.” and even more baffling, it’s the self-identified party of “American” values, patriotism, home, hearth and all that stuff. The very party that _should_ be absolutely losing their shit about it. What’s even more baffling is that the Republican base- the rural, hyper-conservative (reactionary even?) super-traditional sorts seem to be fine with it. Or if they’re not fine with it, it’s because they’ve been completely gulled by “fake news” or something along those lines. > > I think that last part is the _real_ threat to democracy in the US; the polarization of the news media. We can’t go around only reading Fox News or Daily Kos in a vacuum; the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But millions of people do just that every day; they read their own propaganda outlets and take it as God’s own truth. Republicans aren’t going ‘Meh’. Trump was actively involved in getting Russian help. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/38 "2020-02-18T14:35:48Z")
The closest was the Civil War. In terms of modern times, however, this is the closest. The shit pulled by Bush Jr. and even Nixon isn’t even close. To use a sports analogy, what Bush did was like what the Astros did with their sign stealing or what the Patriots did in deflategate. What Trump is doing is more like bribing the commissioner of the league and the officials so that his team starts with two extra runs or up a touchdown at the beginning of the game, or that his side gets four strikes rather than three. The difference between Trump and Nixon is that Trump is succeeding where Nixon failed. So yes, this is the closest we’ve come in modern times. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/39 "2020-02-18T14:49:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “If Trump does (fill in the blank) he will be impeached so fast your head will swim”-How many times have we heard this or somethin damn close to it over the last three years? Yabbut, Susan Collins will likely be concerned… ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/40 "2020-02-18T15:04:07Z")
> [@MacCat](#): > > Yabbut, Susan Collins will likely be concerned… Sen. Collins forgets that she’s a Senator from Maine and not a Senator from a Stephen King novel… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998.md?page=3)