# Is Trump the closest we've come to losing our democratic government **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 15, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998 "2020-02-15T23:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/41 "2020-02-18T15:06:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “If Trump does (fill in the blank) he will be impeached so fast your head will swim”-How many times have we heard this or somethin damn close to it over the last three years? At a rough guess, probably close to the same number of times it has been suggested that Trump will cancel the elections. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/42 "2020-02-18T15:12:48Z")
Trump is too chickenshit to cancel elections or declare martial law. If nothing else a dictator needs an organization that truly backs his policies (not just yes-men), and at most Trump has Mitch McConnell. He’s not even a Huey Long much less an Adolph Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/43 "2020-02-18T15:31:39Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Wasn’t there a sedition law back in John Adams’ time? > > In any case, the United States started out much more as a, shall I say, less than democratic republic. In fact, conservatives today seem fond of reminding us of that fact. We’ve become more democratic over the past 200+ years, expanding the franchise to include people of color and women to varying degrees. If the US backslides on democracy, being less democratic wouldn’t be without precedent, but it would certainly represent a major directional change along the authoritarian - liberal democratic political/philosophical axis. This is an interesting point, but here is the thing; the current risk is not that the USA will be less democratic (although that is an incresing problem) but that it won’t be a REPUBLIC. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Trump is too chickenshit to cancel elections or declare martial law. This is true, but it’s not really the problem. Countries don’t lose their democracy or republicanism because of one person. They lose those things because a big portion of the population doesn’t care about them anymore, and the USA now has a shockingly large portion of its population who are indifferent to whether it remains a democratic republic. That’s what kills a constitution. The USA is not going to abandon the rule of law in 2020; the threat is that it’s going to be firmly placed on that path, and that Trump is the leader, sort of, in sending it that way. It’s not so much that HE will do it as that Trumpism encouraged it. Georgia pretty much openly threw its gubernatorial election in 2018, and election fixing is becoming more accepted. The William Barr / DOJ thing is the first really open shot at implementing dictatorship at the federal level; hijinks are nothing new, but this is a test case in being genuinely open about the federal government simply being a tool of the ruling party and not an apparatus of a republic. Inviting a foreign adversary to help fix elections is, of course, totally unprecedented. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/44 "2020-02-18T15:34:47Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Oh, good, the cancel the election boogeyman. Who’s the last president that people didn’t get suggest would cancel the election, George Bush (41)? In such cases, did the president in question or his supporters wonder out loud about the possibility? [https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/21/trump-election-2020-1374589](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/21/trump-election-2020-1374589) > [@](#): > > In 2016, Donald Trump waffled over whether he would accept the election results if he lost. > > Since then, Trump has repeatedly joked about staying in office beyond the two terms the Constitution allows. Jerry Falwell Jr., Trump’s most prominent evangelical supporter, has suggested Trump should get two years tacked on to his first term as “pay back” for the Mueller investigation. The president’s own former lawyer, Michael Cohen, has warned that “there will never be a peaceful transition of power” should Trump fail in his reelection bid. > **[Here’s What Trump Says Will Happen If He Loses on Tuesday](https://time.com/4560707/donald-trump-election-loss-rigged/)** > > A recount, an impeachment, open borders, crime and violence. > [@](#): > > First, he has said the nation could face a messy fight around the election results themselves. Trump declined to promise at the final presidential debate that he would accept the election results regardless of outcome. “I’ll keep you in suspense,” he said. The following day at a rally in Ohio, he elaborated: “I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election — if I win,” he said. > **[Yes, Let’s Defeat or Impeach Donald Trump. But What If He Refuses to Leave...](https://theintercept.com/2019/03/06/donald-trump-impeachment-2020/)** > > Donald Trump doesn’t care about laws and warned as a 2016 candidate that he might not accept the vote tally. His surrogates have warned of violence. > [@](#): > > Trump has been laying the groundwork for 2020. Think about it: Why would a president who has violated a number of U.S. laws, traditions, and norms — from obstructing justice, to defying the emoluments clause, to threatening the free press, to inciting violence — show any deference to Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution? > **[Trump’s Jokes About Defying Election Results Could Create Chaos](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/trump-jokes-rigged-elections-chaos.html)** > > There’s a real possibility he could declare victory before all the ballots are counted. > [@](#): > > Trump’s certainty that he simply cannot lose could have a real impact on this year’s election. Since assuming office in January 2017, Trump has made at least 27 references to staying in office beyond the constitutional limit of two terms. He often follows up with a remark indicating he is “joking,” “kidding,” or saying it to drive the “fake” news media “crazy.” Even if Trump thinks that he’s only “joking,” the comments fit a broader pattern that raises the prospect that Trump may not leave office quietly in the event he’s on the losing end of a very close election. And unfortunately this possibility is only one of a number of potential election meltdowns we may face in November. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/45 "2020-02-18T15:36:23Z")
What about when [Truman fired MacArthur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_of_Douglas_MacArthur)? There were people very unhappy with that decision and even some who wanted Truman impeached. It’s _possible_ there could have been a military coup. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/46 "2020-02-18T15:55:11Z")
A military coup was never in the cards, though. A lot of Republicans and ordinary citizens were furious but no one in the armed services was talking about a coup. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/47 "2020-02-18T15:56:28Z")
True, but I’d say that it was about as close we’ve come to losing our democratic government as the present situation. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/48 "2020-02-18T17:16:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > At a rough guess, probably close to the same number of times it has been suggested that Trump will cancel the elections. > > Regards, > Shodan Trump doesn’t need to cancel the elections. The Republicans have been systematically removing protections against election tampering and have blocked efforts to put new protections in place, including three election security bills that would require campaigns to notify the FBI if offered help by foreign powers and that would ban voting machines from being connected to the internet. Nothing to see here… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/49 "2020-02-18T17:27:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Trump doesn’t need to cancel the elections. Don’t tell me - tell the Dopers who are using Chicken Little as their spirit animal. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/50 "2020-02-18T17:30:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Don’t tell me - tell the Dopers who are using Chicken Little as their spirit animal. > > Regards, > Shodan “He’s not going to cancel the elections - he’s just going to use the resources of a foreign power to completely undermine the democratic process and the rule of law, rendering the elections meaningless.” Thanks, **Shodan** - that makes me feel much better. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/51 "2020-02-18T17:32:14Z")
If you’re white, maybe. Things probably felt pretty damn undemocratic in Japanese-American internment camps, and that wasn’t even 100 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/52 "2020-02-18T17:53:24Z")
Not even close. In 1798 the Alien and Sedition acts made it illegal to criticize the government and people were arrested and sentenced to prison for calling the president names. Any non citizen could be arrested and deported for being dangerous. In 1861 Lincoln had habeus corpus suspended and had the maryland legislature imprisoned so that they did not vote for secession. In 1918 Sedition acts made it illegal to speak, print, or advocate any ideas that would be thought to interfere with the military, production, or the sale of government bonds. People were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out against the war or encouraging workers to unionize. There were organizations such as the National Security League which questioned the patriotism of anyone who questioned the government. In 1933, the National Recovery Administration was created which tried to create fair codes for each type of business, this meant businesses could be fined for setting prices to low or wage too high. Businesses that cooperated were given an eagle sigil to put in their windows and businesses that did not cooperate were boycotted for being unpatriotic. 4,000 new rules were put in place for business and the cost of doing business increased as much as 40%. When the NRA was declared unconstitutional FDR tried to pack the court, chastened the Supreme Court stopped declaring new laws and agencies unconstitutional. In 1964 LBJ used the CIA and FBI to monitor the Goldwater campaign and report to him what they were planning. He also lied about an attack on US ships in the Gulf of Tonkin to get more power to wage the Vietnam War. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/53 "2020-02-18T17:55:34Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s the part I can’t quite wrap my head around. I keep thinking that had the Russians tried to interfere in our elections and got caught in say… 1965, that would have been considered an act of war, and would have made the Cuban Missile Crisis look like a mild disagreement. > > But now, we have it happening, and we have the party in power shrugging their shoulders and going “Meh.” and even more baffling, it’s the self-identified party of “American” values, patriotism, home, hearth and all that stuff. The very party that _should_ be absolutely losing their shit about it. What’s even more baffling is that the Republican base- the rural, hyper-conservative (reactionary even?) super-traditional sorts seem to be fine with it. Or if they’re not fine with it, it’s because they’ve been completely gulled by “fake news” or something along those lines. > > I think that last part is the _real_ threat to democracy in the US; the polarization of the news media. We can’t go around only reading Fox News or Daily Kos in a vacuum; the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But millions of people do just that every day; they read their own propaganda outlets and take it as God’s own truth. What I can’t understand is, how many times do you have to be lied to in a bald-faced fashion before you finally grasp that you can’t trust your “president” or your “news” outlet to tell you what’s true? Trump’s lies are well documented and easily proved to be lies. Fox “News” whips their viewers up again and again over lies and are never held to account. Personally, I’d be embarrassed to be shown repeatedly how many whoppers I was swallowing. I do think the cavalier acceptance of the corruption by Republicans is the foremost reason why so many citizens likewise shrug and discount the importance of what is happening right under their noses. They take their cues from their leaders, and they really do believe if something bad was happening, Congress would fix it – so everything must be ok. In the case of Trump and his Russian henchmen, they could not be more wrong. Trump has been mobbed up with both US and Russian mafia for literal decades. “Electing” him to run the country is one of the biggest mistakes we have ever collectively made – and Putin’s best move ever. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/54 "2020-02-18T18:13:15Z")
dp ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/55 "2020-02-18T19:42:17Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > If you’re white, maybe. Things probably felt pretty damn undemocratic in Japanese-American internment camps, and that wasn’t even 100 years ago. We have made quite a few steps forward since then-Would taking a few steps _back_ actually make you feel better? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/56 "2020-02-18T20:24:57Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Republicans aren’t going ‘Meh’. Trump was actively involved in getting Russian help. I meant the rest of the party- the majority in the Senate, the minority in the House, and the other elected officials at all levels. There was just NO outcry from any of them about it, and that’s what disturbs me the most. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/57 "2020-02-18T20:50:52Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I meant the rest of the party- the majority in the Senate, the minority in the House, and the other elected officials at all levels. There was just NO outcry from any of them about it, and that’s what disturbs me the most. I expect the phrase, “We either hang together or we hang separately,” goes a long way toward explaining it. Also, there is no advantage for Republicans to dissent. Dems aren’t going to vote for them because they do the right thing. Trump’s base will turn on them if they do the right thing. The only way they have a chance to keep their seats is if they continue to support the loon in the Oval Office and hope like hell the Russians/Saudis/North Koreans do the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/58 "2020-02-18T20:51:26Z")
You may think that FDR going for a third term wasn’t coming close to loosing our democratic government. Perhaps because it wasn’t unconstitutional at the time. Or perhaps because you think that FDR was a high point of American Democracy. But plenty of people /did/ think that it was the next step on the road to President For Life, from a president who governed in an anti-democratic manner, the result of which was that it /did/ become explicitly unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/59 "2020-02-18T22:08:03Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > You may think that FDR going for a third term wasn’t coming close to loosing our democratic government. Perhaps because it wasn’t unconstitutional at the time. Or perhaps because you think that FDR was a high point of American Democracy. But plenty of people /did/ think that it was the next step on the road to President For Life, from a president who governed in an anti-democratic manner, the result of which was that it /did/ become explicitly unconstitutional. I’m still confused at how winning a democratic election, even for a third time, is coming close to losing our democracy. Plenty of people couldn’t stand the fact that they couldn’t nominate a candidate that could get more votes that the sitting President. Term limits are inherently anti-democratic. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998/60 "2020-02-18T22:33:30Z")
News media used to be even more polarized. The parties usually each had a paper before the early part of the 20th Century. But certainly a lot of more recent norms are being rolled back or are deteriorating. Post Nixon norms about a lot of presidential behavior that we recently took as pretty unshakeable are deteriorating or gone. As far as whether he would get impeached if he cancelled the election\*: Based on the response to him soliciting foreign interference in his reelection bid, I expect a similar response if he decided to cancel elections and declare himself King. Officials and spokespeople would “clarify” that elections were not actually canceled, but merely postponed indefinitely, and the declaration that he was now “the King” was obviously facetious. In unrelated news, the newly created protocol czar has announced that Trump should be referred to as “the King, his Royal Highness, or Your Majesty.” Most Republicans will then say that the election has clearly not been cancelled and Democrats are spreading fake news that they made up, and are being hysterical. Some will say he was joking about the King thing. Others will shake their heads and say he should not have said that, and that it wasn’t right, but doesn’t warrant impeachment. - I’m not saying it’s likely, just that this is what would happen if he did. I think it’s more likely that he believes he will win (he’s a narcissist) but talks a lot about what will happen if he doesn’t, and then he tries to make things very messy if he loses. I think the degree to which Republicans go along will be determined by political calculus at the time it happens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-trump-the-closest-weve-come-to-losing-our-democratic-government/847998.md?page=4)