# Is truth really up for debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823 "2013-08-09T18:21:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/41 "2013-08-09T19:55:11Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > No, no it isnt Oh, don’t be such a baby. Now, cross your feet, I’ve only got one nail left . . . ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/42 "2013-08-09T19:59:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There actually is a (minor) debate among philosophers over the nature of truth. > > The conventional reasoning is that there actually is a truth, and that we can come close to it, approaching it asymptotically. Science is the usual technique. We keep trying things, and eliminate those things which aren’t true. There may always be a margin of uncertainty, but the idea is that there really is a truth. > > The minority view is that there might not be such a thing. The truth might not be out there. It might be fuzzy and elusive, as the location of particles in quantum physics. It might be self-contradictory. Our cognitive tools – our reason – might simply be insufficient to the task of defining it. > > It isn’t one of the major burning issues of the day… Depending on what philosophy you subscribe to, I suppose. The (greek) Platonic idea is that truth IS out there, we’re just incapable of achieving it. Approximating it was actually originally mathematic. The idea of a perfect circle exists, absolutely, as truth. Our feeble real world approximation of that perfect circle is crude, imperfect, and written in crayon. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/43 "2013-08-09T20:13:04Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Yes it is. No, no it isn’t ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/44 "2013-08-09T20:15:39Z")
> [@Okieshowedem](#): > > There is the truth then there is every ones opinion. > Those who think they know are the very ones that are deceived by the most subtle creature that the Creator of all things has created so says the Scriptures. > Want to see how this evil one deceived the whole world? > Then come on by the web site. > > Okie Reality = what happens. Truth = why it happens. We can probably narrow down the facts regarding the former, but I think there’ll be quite a bit of debate left as to the latter. Science is most likely the best way we know to arrive at the facts regarding either matter. Okie, it’s my firm understanding that natural means cannot be used to explain the supernatural. Since God is supernatural, there can be no facts associated with any religious “truth”. That said, it’s a waste of time to appeal to any form of logic or reason when discussing faith. You have it, you eventually have it, or you never have it. I don’t trust the faith of those who arrived at “belief” through reason … there’s nothing reasonable about it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/45 "2013-08-09T20:26:26Z")
**Okieshowedem** , could you be wrong? Is it possible that you could be wrong? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/46 "2013-08-09T20:39:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > No, no it isn’t Duck Season! ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/47 "2013-08-09T20:42:10Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Okie, it’s my firm understanding that natural means cannot be used to explain the supernatural. Since God is supernatural, there can be no facts associated with any religious “truth”. That said, it’s a waste of time to appeal to any form of logic or reason when discussing faith. You have it, you eventually have it, or you never have it. I don’t trust the faith of those who arrived at “belief” through reason … there’s nothing reasonable about it. Anything that intersects with this world in any way is ‘natural’, and falls under the purview of science. If god interacts with this world/universe/plane, has any real effect whatsoever, then he falls under the ‘natural’ category and thus can be examined by science. If god does not or cannot interact with this world, than why bother with him at all? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/48 "2013-08-09T20:58:23Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Anything that intersects with this world in any way is ‘natural’, and falls under the purview of science. If god interacts with this world/universe/plane, has any real effect whatsoever, then he falls under the ‘natural’ category and thus can be examined by science. > > If god does not or cannot interact with this world, than why bother with him at all? That would be a better thread topic, IMO. Why indeed? By the way, I disagree with your partial definition of “Natural”. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/49 "2013-08-09T21:17:49Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > By the way, I disagree with your partial definition of “Natural”. How do you define natural then? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/50 "2013-08-09T21:26:49Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > That would be a better thread topic, IMO. Why indeed? > > By the way, I disagree with your partial definition of “Natural”. He can better define it if you would disclose your definition of supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/51 "2013-08-09T21:27:04Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > How do you define natural then? :gets\_popcorn: ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/52 "2013-08-09T21:31:09Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > How do you define natural then? If science can observe, measure and test it, it’s natural. I’ve yet to see anything properly observed, measured and tested by scientists declared spirit, ghost, demon or deity. That doesn’t relate to whether I believe that said entities are in fact extant. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/53 "2013-08-09T21:33:50Z")
Suppose it were true that Satan had the power to deceive the entire world. And the Bible is what tells you this. How do you know that Satan isn’t using the Bible to deceive you? Or maybe better, since you presumably have had God speak to you directly, how do I tell the difference between Satan’s lies and the truth? Remember that I’m just an average idiot. If Satan has been lying to me all my life, and I’ve been believing him all my life, how do I figure out the truth? Listen to a small still voice? Except how do I know that voice isn’t Satan? If my brain and senses aren’t qualified to see through Satan’s lies, then how are the qualified to see God’s truth? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/54 "2013-08-09T21:35:01Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > If science can observe, measure and test it, it’s natural. I’ve yet to see anything properly observed, measured and tested by scientists declared spirit, ghost, demon or deity. That doesn’t relate to whether I believe that said entities are in fact extant. What’s the difference between a phenomenon that can’t be observed, measured or tested, and a phenomenon that doesn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/55 "2013-08-09T21:38:29Z")
Sufficiently advanced technology. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/56 "2013-08-09T21:43:38Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Suppose it were true that Satan had the power to deceive the entire world. > > And the Bible is what tells you this. > > How do you know that Satan isn’t using the Bible to deceive you? Or maybe better, since you presumably have had God speak to you directly, how do I tell the difference between Satan’s lies and the truth? Remember that I’m just an average idiot. If Satan has been lying to me all my life, and I’ve been believing him all my life, how do I figure out the truth? > > Listen to a small still voice? Except how do I know that voice isn’t Satan? > > If my brain and senses aren’t qualified to see through Satan’s lies, then how are the qualified to see God’s truth? I have seen by your baseless assertion to me in another thread that you may be prone to miss the truth by a wide margin, and I mean that in a kind and friendly way. To contribute to a seemingly rhetorical question,\*\* “If my brain and senses aren’t qualified to see through Satan’s lies, then how are the qualified to see God’s truth?”\*\* … since Lucifer/ the Devil is a troublemaker from God’s perspective, but IMO a rebel from his own point of view, perhaps it would help if you considered the problem from a different angle. Maybe you keep reincarnating until you develop the deductive abilities to distinguish the acts of one mythical entity from the acts of the other. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/57 "2013-08-09T21:48:05Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Sufficiently advanced technology. You are beginning to get my point … if Santa is a super-powerful alien with a generous heart, he’s not Santa anymore. Until we figure out a way to move him from the “supernatural” category to “natural”, he avoids detection for all practical purposes. Same for any omnipotent legend. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/58 "2013-08-09T22:01:20Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Reality = what happens. > Truth = why it happens. > > We can probably narrow down the facts regarding the former, but I think there’ll be quite a bit of debate left as to the latter. Science is most likely the best way we know to arrive at the facts regarding either matter. I kind of agree, except that some people have trouble accepting the reality of what happened, and science is good at finding this out - for example the Noachian flood. Some people spend a lot of time trying to find natural explanations for **why** various Biblical miracles happened, where the truth is that they didn’t. You might as well study the structure of a tornado which can carry a house more or less intact over long distances. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/59 "2013-08-09T22:03:15Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I have seen by your baseless assertion to me in another thread that you may be prone to miss the truth by a wide margin, and I mean that in a kind and friendly way. > > To contribute to a seemingly rhetorical question,\*\* “If my brain and senses aren’t qualified to see through Satan’s lies, then how are the qualified to see God’s truth?”\*\* … since Lucifer/ the Devil is a troublemaker from God’s perspective, but IMO a rebel from his own point of view, perhaps it would help if you considered the problem from a different angle. Maybe you keep reincarnating until you develop the deductive abilities to distinguish the acts of one mythical entity from the acts of the other. Gotcha, so from your perspective my intellect and senses are so degraded you have no hope of me ever telling truth from lies. And since the problem is me, you have no way to help me tell the difference, since my fallible brain won’t be able to understand what you say anyway. So there you go. Conversation over, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823/60 "2013-08-09T22:06:49Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I have seen by your baseless assertion to me in another thread that you may be prone to miss the truth by a wide margin, and I mean that in a kind and friendly way. > > To contribute to a seemingly rhetorical question,\*\* “If my brain and senses aren’t qualified to see through Satan’s lies, then how are the qualified to see God’s truth?”\*\* … since Lucifer/ the Devil is a troublemaker from God’s perspective, but IMO a rebel from his own point of view, perhaps it would help if you considered the problem from a different angle. Maybe you keep reincarnating until you develop the deductive abilities to distinguish the acts of one mythical entity from the acts of the other. Sometimes it is fun to provisionally accept the premise that these mythical entities exist and see where it takes you. For instance, God and Satan. God killed almost the entire population of the world. God ordered his people to massacre villages. God let his temple be destroyed, twice. And Satan? Convinced two naive kids to have a fruit snack, did stuff to Job under God’s orders, tempted, maybe, Jesus, and annoyed Linda Blair. So one can have trouble distinguishing these mythical entities. Of course God says he is good. Know who else said he was good? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-truth-really-up-for-debate/665823.md?page=4)